Partial conscious control?

[llao]

Why can't I just come up with a "normal" super character? Sigh.

Anyway I'm trying to figure out the best way to do the disadvantages, etc for a Ghost rider/ Johny blaze sort of character.

Here is what I am after, and I'll use the Ghost rider/Blaze format for ease in understanding.

I want Blaze to have some say in when ghost rider comes out. In other words he can call and request him (Hulk is about to pound me, now would be a good time to come out? Please?). On the other side I want the Ghost rider side to somehow "know" when innocent lives are in danger (and johny not know) in which case he may come out un- announced. Johny may have some ability to hold him off for a bit with effort.

So accidental change comes to mind as does no conscious control. Neither quite work right. I could do a skll or activation roll of sorts. Ideally I want the GM to have some say in whether Ghosty is likely to come out as the GM will be the one to best know if innocent lives are in danger.

As usual, there is probably some easy way to do this I have completely missed. Anyhelpful ideas are appreciated!

[Lord Liaden]

Hmm... Interesting challenge.

It sounds like you're interested in "partial No Conscious Control." The PC can sometimes call upon the superpowered "Ghost Rider" form, but not reliably and/or with difficulty. Sometimes the super form will arise on its own, but the PC can hold back the transformation temporarily, probably with a lot of effort. Do I have that right?

I can think of a couple of ways within the rules framework to approach this, both building the super form with Multiform (since the Ghost Rider is a different personality from Johnny Blaze, Multiform sounds like the most appropriate choice). One is to take No Conscious Control on Multiform at a lower level than -2. Several published characters have used NCC as a -1 Limitation. This represents either a Power that they can activate at will, but can't control once it's on, or one that they can't activate at will but can fully control once it is active. My suggestion would be to split the difference, so that activation and suppression of the Multiform is only partially under the PC's control, and define with your GM (assuming you're not the GM) what conditions are required for the Blaze character to call up GR, and what's required for him to prevent GR from manifesting. Appropriate conditions for either case might include the equivalent of Extra Time, Concentration, Increased Endurance Cost, Activation Roll and the like, although these would be subsumed into that -1 Limitation.

The other approach would be a little more complicated, but would let you model the effect more precisely. You start by building the Multiform and taking the NCC Lim at -2. Add up the number of points that you save on Multiform by taking the Lim, apply Limitations to those points like the ones I mentioned above, and add that number of points to the character's total. You have in effect "bought off" the NCC Limitation, but the points the character needs to be able to control the change are modified (and the change made more difficult) by whatever Limitations you think would be appropriate. This approach of Limiting "buyoff" points is generally legal under the rules BTW.

If that wasn't clear, feel free to post followup questions. If it doesn't work for you, you could clarify your problem and we'll try again. In any event I'm sure you'll hear from other folks with good ideas.

Oh, and Welcome to the boards, llao.

[WhammeWhamme]

I think it's fairly simple, all things considered.

Physical Limitation: Automatic Change (when Innocents threatened such that "Ghost Rider" could sense it)

Plus a Multiform (or Only in Hero ID) with conditions on activation, like extra time, or costs END to change, or concentration, or requires an EGO roll... depends on exactly how it is difficult to change.

[llao]

thanks for the reply Lord Liaden!

I think the partial conscious control idea works. The change won't be immediate so "johny" will have time to run for the bathroom or whatever, knowing it's coming. I may drop in a willpower roll for Johny to keep him in vs Ghosties willpower roll to come out - something like that. of course Ghosties roll will get a bonus each phase, turn, segment, whatever so next roll he's more likelyt to make it, and so on.
I could use concentration too. Sooner or later someone will break "johnys" concentration...
dunno. We'll see.
I need to get an answer on if I've done the multiform right too. I have "Johny" with 50 pts spent multiform for a 400 point "ghost rider". I think this is right... but. It's surprising how few multiform heroes or villians there are in champions to use for sanity checks to see if I'm doing the costs right! I figured Grond (built in the Hulk) would work - but no - he stays Grond all the time.
Fun game, but dern frustrating to take things from imagination to paper sometimes!

[Lord Liaden]

Actually, the cost of Multiform to the "true form" (which is the one that buys the capacity to change to the other form) is one Character Point for every five CP the other form is built on. So, the cost of Multiform for a 400-pt. character would be 80 Active Points, before any Limitations that might be applied.

I recommend going back over the specks for Multiform in the rulebook to make sure you've got them down.

[llao]

I recommend going back over the specks for Multiform in the rulebook to make sure you've got them down.

I will do that. Clear as mud sometimes though and it's not that it's simply confusing!

This one along with some of the power frameworks needs a bunch of examples. When a power stumps me I like to go to a character built "officially" by HERO and then reverse engineer the points to see how it's done. For many if not most powers there are plenty of opportunities to do that. For Multiform there is Managerie in the crook book but that's just about it!

Thanks for your help (and lord knows, I need help!