Hero too hard?

[DietCokeOfEvil]

Well, I got together with two of my players and we started trying to muddle our way through character creation and basic combat rules. One character is playing Onyx, a brick using multiform to turn into a fourteen foot tall stone goliath. The second character is playing The Void, a character with a nasty mystical stiletto, dark bolts, minimual teleportation, undead body, and reincarnation when he gets clobbered. I ran them through an encounter vs nonpowered thugs, which went really well (sort of) and then later an encounter with BullDozer from the Villians handbook. They got creamed. They were using the 200/150 pt buy when we made characters. Onyx (the brick) could not even hurt Bulldozer. Void ended up taking him down with the stiletto. I dont think Im making these characters correctly.

Why does everyone have such high dexterity? 20 seems to be the norm in superhero world. I figured a 12 for Onyx, since he is so big and made of stone, but then he never is able to hit anyone. The same with PD. The Void has a PD of like 8.. which is way too low compared to all the supervillians.

I also dont understand multiform. I only own the sidekick rule book, but it says "A character's forms are built on the same Bse points as the true form." That means his multiform can only have a total of 200 pts, plus disadvanatges right? So.. like the werewolf example in the book, with a 400 pt form, is only allowable if your base characters are 400pts?

Im starting to think Hero is a bit too difficult to tackle....

[Andrew Cermak]

Why does everyone have such high dexterity? 20 seems to be the norm in superhero world. I figured a 12 for Onyx, since he is so big and made of stone, but then he never is able to hit anyone. The same with PD. The Void has a PD of like 8.. which is way too low compared to all the supervillians.

Because superheroes, as trained combatants who constantly exercise their abilities, are a lot more agile than the average person. There's your in-game reason.

Out of game, that's just the default parameters Champions characters operate under. The game's been through 5 editions, and characters have settled into certain standards. If you want Dex scores in your campaign to be lower, it's incumbent on you to adjust the Dex scores of your NPCs to match. Same with PD; note that making defenses lower will make combats go quicker, which may be a good thing or a bad thing depending on your preferences.

I also dont understand multiform. I only own the sidekick rule book, but it says "A character's forms are built on the same Bse points as the true form." That means his multiform can only have a total of 200 pts, plus disadvanatges right? So.. like the werewolf example in the book, with a 400 pt form, is only allowable if your base characters are 400pts?

No, you'd just have to take 200 points in Disads for the werewolf form. (and, for players, get GM's permission to have a form that exceeds the campaign's points parameters).

[casualplayer]

Although it seems like Onyx should use Multiform, unless he has skills specific to each form applying Only In Hero Id (-1/4 disadvantage) to all the abilities in excess of his human form will work a lot better. And be cheaper allowing the character to notch up his powers a smidge.

I have to adjust published characters to use them, especially DEX. Burly bricks should not be olympic-caliber gymnasts. Everyone isn't a 18 INT genius. 5th Ed suffers mightly from a 20 year escalation of power. Back in the day heroes were built on 100 base + 100 drawback points.

You could post the characters and the mechanics will work them over bringing them up to 5th Ed specs, or you can take a pencil to published NPCs and customize to fit your game. Either way is groovy. The only drawback to going your own way would be if your players took their characters to a gaming convention.

[Hugh Neilson]

Part of the issue is stat inflation, especially re DEX. In 1e, slow bricks had dex 18-20, standard energy projectors had DEX 23 or 26, and higth Dex martial articts had Dex 29-32.

If someone had put on the brakes then and set Bricks at Dex 8-11, EP's at 15-18 amd those superior MA's at 20-23, we'd have lower DEX and more points for other things today. But it's been ingrained since 1e.

[TheQuestionMan]

First Rule of Hero GMing, Pre Generate Characters, Combat Sheets from Free Stuff Section, and Roll the Dice. The Players are members of the same Superhero Team and must battle a mix of Agents and Super Villains.

Use the Battle Maps from the GM Screen.

Walk them through the basic combat sveral time.

Use Robots, vehicles, and bases.

If the Super villains trashd the Superheroes last game give them a large group of NPCs to trash next game.

Once the players are comfortable with the system and ready to make their own character then start your campaign.

The best advice I have evey been given

Cheers

QM

[Hugh Neilson]

The problem isn't stat inflation. The problem is that Hero began going universal and introduced a heroic level of play with Espionage and Fantasy Hero that was not inline with what they had previously established for Champions. So now you have all this NCM confusion where none should have really existed.

It started with the "Joe Average has 10 Stats" concept. Had the original authors not set a bar of 18+ DEX for all Supers in the 1e book as sample characters, players likely would not have met that bar either.

[Hugh Neilson]

I disagree. Joe average was always set at 10. The problem was that Hero did not adhere to their own design concepts when they decided to go universal. VIPER agents had their 15 dex and heroes had 18+ and everyone was happy with that. If Fantasy Hero and Justice, Inc had gone with a 30 NCM there would be no confusion now, nearly 20 years later.

That would have solved the bunching issue. A range of DEX between (say) 8 and 26 in Champions, rather than 15 to 35 would also have done the trick, leaving a considerable range for NCM. Part of the problem is that we look at an 18 DEX (4x human norm, now, about 3 times then) and classify that as "pretty slow" for a Super. If 8 was "pretty slow" for a Super, we'd have the same range of CV's at lower DEX totals (and Treb's character Z'lf would be incredible at a 33 DEX instead of a 43).

[gojira]

Getting back on subject....

Yeah, post the characters' full stats and we can comment further. But basically, you have to bump up the PCs to what HERO considers Super levels, or adjust all of the published villians down for your PCs to fight. Easiest to go with the first.

With that line of thought, the brick should have DEX of 18-23 (or more), martial artist should have DEX of 28+ (right on up to 44 if you can justify it), maybe a midvalue for the MA should be around 28-35. Both characters should also (strongly) consider adding one or two levels with their weapons, multipowers, etc. for a little power boost.

[devlin1]

Why does everyone have such high dexterity? 20 seems to be the norm in superhero world. I figured a 12 for Onyx, since he is so big and made of stone, but then he never is able to hit anyone.

Buy Combat Skill Levels. Keep his DEX low if you want, but if he's supposed to be good in combat, it'll be because he's well-trained, not because he's naturally fast. DEX shouldn't be the only thing you rely on for CV.

The same with PD. The Void has a PD of like 8.. which is way too low compared to all the supervillians.

Indeed! So either come up with some excuse for Void to have bigger defenses that are consistent with his concept. If he has an "undead body," buy up his PD and ED, probably with Resistant Defenses as well, with the justification that mundane attacks just don't tend to damage him. Shoot him, stab him, you name it. He's already dead. Or call it high-speed regeneration-- that is, he regenerates so quickly that he doesn't even take the damage. These are both pretty common special effects for his kind of concept, IMO.

Im starting to think Hero is a bit too difficult to tackle....

It's not at all. It just may require slightly different thinking than many other RPGs.

[Springald Jack]

That would have solved the bunching issue. A range of DEX between (say) 8 and 26 in Champions, rather than 15 to 35 would also have done the trick, leaving a considerable range for NCM.

This is a big problem. In fact it is bigger than HERO. Many Supers games have this problem where everyone has to be at peak human potential at almost everything in order to be Super at their specialty effectively. To a certain extent this makes sense.

In all Honesty I see an 8 DEX as being to low for a Super. However a 12 shouldn't bee too low for a Super (It would be low but not too low. It would be what low DEX Supers have.) You know somewhat athletic, a little coordinated.

Just a Thought

[Victim]

Actually, the problem starts with the low cost (for effect) of Dex. Dex is cheap for what it does, so there's a constant pressure to get more Dex. That being said, I don't think 18 Dex means Olympic gymnast. Somehow, I doubt most gymnasts have great CV. Instead they'll have a bunch of skill levels with Acrobatics.

Look at the chart for Character Ability Guidelines. Published supers are built with those specs in mind. Your PCs weren't.

[David Blue]

Hello, DietCokeOfEvil. I'm sure you'll be Doctor Evil one day. You do have enough calories, you are enough evil!

Well, I got together with two of my players and we started trying to muddle our way through character creation and basic combat rules. One character is playing Onyx, a brick using multiform to turn into a fourteen foot tall stone goliath. The second character is playing The Void, a character with a nasty mystical stiletto, dark bolts, minimual teleportation, undead body, and reincarnation when he gets clobbered.

It sounds to me like you're off to a good start. Those are legitimate super concepts, which means your players are into it enough to make a go of this game.

I ran them through an encounter vs nonpowered thugs, which went really well (sort of) and then later an encounter with BullDozer from the Villians handbook.

Whoa, whoa! There's no need to rush straight to super combat!

Champions is extremely difficult. Take your time. Build up. Things'll be easier. Let your characters crunch as many punks as it takes for everybody to get comfortable.

First, tell us about that "(sort of)". It would be nicer if you had things going really well with no "sort of". What was the problem with your fun, and what would more fun (no "sort of") have looked like?

They got creamed. They were using the 200/150 pt buy when we made characters. Onyx (the brick) could not even hurt Bulldozer. Void ended up taking him down with the stiletto.

At this point, it has to be firmly said: the heroes won! That's not everything, but it's such a good point it should never be ignored.

I dont think Im making these characters correctly.

You may not be the problem. Sometimes the user is wrong, and sometimes the program has a bug. Roleplaying games have lots of bugs.

Why does everyone have such high dexterity?

Who cares? Whatever the rationale, stupid is stupid.

20 seems to be the norm in superhero world.

It's 23, because that's an efficient number. Which makes all published characters stupid. Which in turn saves you a lot of money.

I figured a 12 for Onyx, since he is so big and made of stone, but then he never is able to hit anyone.

You mean he can't hit any published characters. Fine. No problem.

Since you think 12 is a good DEX - and I agree with you - make up your own villains that he can hit. It doesn't take long. If you need help at first, we can help you, a lot.

The same with PD. The Void has a PD of like 8.. which is way too low compared to all the supervillians.

Same problem, same solution. Published Champions characters have stupidly inflated abilities. Ignore them. Build your own villains, or use (suitable) converted Marvel and DC villains.

Everybody who tells you what you "have to" do is wrong. It's your game. You paid for it. It works for you, you don't work for it.

And pretty soon if you stick to your guns and your task, it will work the way you want it to.

I've got to say: we can all only give suggestions, but The Question Man gave great suggestions.

I also dont understand multiform. I only own the sidekick rule book ...

Me too.

Im starting to think Hero is a bit too difficult to tackle....

It is, but here's the bad news: most superhero games are lousy in general.

Hero System is actually better than many others in a lot of ways. For example, you don't have to bother with Hero Points. (If you don't know what Hero Points can mean in a superhero game - you're lucky. You might want to stay that way.)

My advice is: you already paid for a very good book, Sidekick. There was no better way you could have spent your money as far as I know. Stick to it and get full value out of it. Don't pay the cost in money and frustration of getting in on the ground floor of game after game.

[JmOz]

I do have to wonder however where all the points went, on 350 points you can have some extremly lopsided characters (Extreme attacks, extreme defences)

[David Blue]

David, I would suggest to you that when someone posts a thread discussing how hard Hero is the operative answer should not be to tell the fan to rewrite everything, thus making the game even harder for him.

Hmm. Gently put. And I forgot ...

He has Sidekick, CKC, and access to the Genre-By-Genre pdf. That gives him over 100 Champions character examples [about half of which are 350 points] to base his player's characters on.

So effectively he has a lot of money sunk in the way published characters already work.

I still want to know why ... "an encounter vs nonpowered thugs [...] went really well (sort of)".