The "real" Golden Age vs the "nostalgic" Golden Age

[nexus]

After reading a few threads discussing the Golden Age of comics (ususally around the World War 2 period or there abouts) there's seems to be a real dichotomy between one image of what they were like and they actual comics at the time. The nostalgic image seems to be one of relative purity. Good and Evil were black and white, the Heroes were always Fair and True and the Bad Guys black hearted fiends. Patriotism and Adventure were the name of the day and there wasn't a hint of the sordid or base on the side of the good, while the actuality seems more muddled. Racism, some rather extreme violence and the attitude that anything the "Good Guys" did was ok were present as well as some hints of a more questionable sexuality such as bound females in a suggestively torn clothing being prominently featured.

Opinions? Discussion?

Edit: Cleaned up a couple of typos

[Fox1]

It's whichever the GM decides it is.

[fbdaury]

After reading a few threads discussing the Golden Age of comics (ususally around the World War 2 period or there abouts) there's seems to be a real dichotomy between one image of what they were like and they actual comics at the time. The nostalgic image seems to be one of relative purity. Good and Evil were black and white, the Heroes were always Fair and True and the Bad Guys black heated fiends. Patriotism and Adventure were the name of the day and there wasn't a hint of the sordid or base on the side of the good, while the actuality seems more muddled. Racism, some rather extreme violence and the attitude that anything the "Good Guys" did was ok were present as well as some hints of a more questionable sexuality such as bound females in a suggestively torn clothing being prominently features.

Opinions? Discussion?

Yes those elements were there of course, but many of the readers were either too young to pick up on the context of those elements or those elements were so prevalent in society at the time that no one recognized them as being negatives. And, then there's those rose colored glasses that many of us use to review the past as we remember it, editting out the bad things and just reflecting on the good.

[Dr. Anomaly]

Perception really is key. Heck, even the early Disney offerings were rife with bigotry and racial stereotypes! Both were products of their times and of perceptions then.

I'm afraid I can't remember who said it, but an observation I once heard seems really relevant to this discussion:

"Unlike what most people believe, the past isn't fixed; it's in a constant state of flux as it is continually re-interpreted by our current perceptions."

[C--]

It's whichever the GM decides it is.

No, it's not. Because the GM can't decide that Wonder Woman didn't have drawings of bound women with heavy lesbian overtones. Wonder Woman had those, and unless the GM builds a time machine, goes back in time, and stops them from being pubished, then that is exactly what actually happened. We're talking about perception vs the real thing here, not some hypothetical game, but you're too caught up in your "the GM is always right" crusade to notice.

The GM has control over his world for as long as the players allow it. That's all he can do. I've played in some good golden age games, and some bad ones. If the GM decides that the golden age was about having the heroes anally rape young boys and then roleplay the angst of having superpowers for the rest of the session, he can do that. Of course, any player worth a damn will then whack the GM in the head with a sledgehammer and say "You don't get to run the game anymore, Chris!"

The golden age as it actually happened is in no way controlled by the GM, just as my tax return is not controlled by the GM. It's a fact of life, and no amount of "I am the GAME MASTER. I have created the world you see before you" will change that.

--

Now, perception-wise, people (often those who haven't read any golden age comics) seem to confuse silver age with golden age, and they often toss in a whole boatload of iron age ideas as well. That can be confusing for those who do know what the golden age comics were about, as the description does not match what is expected.

GM: "My game is sort of like Giffen-era Justice League, with some Ambush Bug and She-Hulk thrown in."
Players: (nodding heads) "Okay."
2 hours later...
GM: "So, Kid Miracleman drops the last of the bodies into the Thames River. The pile of corpses rises above the waters. Over the din of explosions and the roar of the flames that have engulfed London, the wail of mothers whose arms have been ripped off and can no longer hold their children reaches your ears. Kid Miracleman lands before you, in front of a wall covered with severed genetalia, each carefully nailed in place, like a young student's insect collection. He smiles and says 'I don't know art. But I know what I like.'"
Players: "..." (grabs sledgehammer) THWACK!!! "You don't get to run the game anymore, Chris!!!"

[Vondy]

No, it's not. Because the GM can't decide that Wonder Woman didn't have drawings of bound women with heavy lesbian overtones. Wonder Woman had those, and unless the GM builds a time machine, goes back in time, and stops them from being pubished, then that is exactly what actually happened. We're talking about perception vs the real thing here, not some hypothetical game, but you're too caught up in your "the GM is always right" crusade to notice.

If the GM says he's running "accurate to the material printed in the golden age," then that's what he's running. If he says he's running "romanticized nostalgia golden age," then that's what he's running. The key is that he has to be clear and upfront about the approach to the source material and the major genre conventions in play. If the players aren't interested they aren't interested, but that's a double edged sword. Being a gamemaster takes time and energy beyond what the players put into the game. In many cases, much more time and energy. As a result, the gamemaster has to be interested and want to run the game. If I say I'm running romanticized nostalgia golden age hero with x tropes and the players say: "we won't let you run that," then I'll ask: "what will you be running then?" The answer has invariably been blank, shocked silence. How dare I expect them to take responsibility for their own entertainment. Gamemasters aren't their players slaves. Its a two way street.

[OddHat]

Many or most of the comics in the Golden Age were complete crap. Badly written, badly drawn, racist, sexist, perverse, and filled with the worst of American culture. However, they still had their charms. The ordinary man could fight the big fights, and win, through his heroes.

Many or most of the comics in the Silver Age were complete crap. Badly written, badly drawn, racist, sexist, and filled with the worst of American culture. The Comics Code pushed the realities of crime and violence (such as they were in the comics) under the table, and the stories got worse. However, those comics had their charms. Wild flights of Sci-fi and fantasy, better art, and sometimes better writing started to show up. Some really good art started to appear.

Many or most of the comics in the Bronze Age were complete crap. Badly written, badly drawn, racist, sexist, perverse, and filled with the worst of American culture. However, some of the stupidities of the Silver Age began to fade, the writing improved further, and the world(s) explored started to more closely resemble the world outside the window. Some goofiness was lost, which may not have been a good thing. UK writers started to get noticed in the US.

Many or most of the comics in the Iron Age were complete crap. Badly written, badly drawn, racist, sexist, perverse, and filled with the worst dregs of American and British culture. However, some really good writing and art was now being done regularly in Comics, and the Comics Code lost its sting.

Many or most of the comics produced now are complete crap. Badly written, badly drawn, racist, sexist, perverse, and filled with the worst dregs of English speaking culture. However, there are a number of comics featuring excellent writing and very worthwhile art coming out as well.

95% of everything is crap.

[Fox1]

If the GM says he's running "accurate to the material printed in the golden age," then that's what he's running. If he says he's running "romanticized nostalgia golden age," then that's what he's running. The key is that he has to be clear and upfront about the approach to the source material and the major genre conventions in play. If the players aren't interested they aren't interested, but that's a double edged sword. Being a gamemaster takes time and energy beyond what the players put into the game. In many cases, much more time and energy. As a result, the gamemaster has to be interested and want to run the game. If I say I'm running romanticized nostalgia golden age hero with x tropes and the players say: "we won't let you run that," then I'll ask: "what will you be running then?" The answer has invariably been blank, shocked silence. How dare I expect them to take responsibility for their own entertainment. Gamemasters aren't their players slaves. Its a two way street.

Exactly.

[Logan D]

95% of everything is crap.

Yup - Sturgeon's Law. Which states that 90% of everything is crap.

However, there is also the corollory to Sturgeon's Law, which states -

"However, 60% OF that 90% is GOOD crap."

[Libra]

You are a bunch of Jaded, pessemistic Cynics.

How Iron Age.

I do agree with the "60% of the 90% is good cr@p" observation.

[Supreme Serpent]

"At least 50% of observations about crap are crap."

[Red Knight]

Nostolga: <Noun> the ability to forget the bad and remember the good.

When we look back at the old comics there is a tendency to say that the comics were more pure... <BUZZER SOUNDS> Sorry that's the wrong answer. I remember seeing a special on comics that stated that (for example) Wonder Woman's powers could be taken away with you tied up her hands and feet and gagged her. More than once there were scenes where Wonder Woman was bound and gagged laying over a man's knee getting spanked. You couldn't print that today. As has been stated previously in this thread, the stories are a product of thir time. The same holds true today. The "Iron Age" comics that are violent and dark are nothing more than a product of the modern society. I still remember when Spawn first premiered. A man from hell fighting the devil?? Neat concept and the art was wild. I used to collect Cyberforce. Again, a team of killers that broke free and started to directly oppose thier previous master. The later eighties were heavily influences by the cyberpunk mentality. Where a person is fighting against the evil megacorp. If you think of the today, people are sceptical, and cynical. The comics reflect that. It is only natural that the people who do not like that look back and activate the "nostolgia filter". Is it wrong?? Every generation does it. My parents talked about how the kids were better in their day and now I see myslef saying the same thing about the new generation. Human nature states that the past is better than the now.
Getting back on subject:
The fact that the Golden Age comics were produced is not in question. The fact that thre are two schools of thought about them (real and nostolgic) is not in question. The true question is if you are playing a game in this era, how are you going to handle it??

In one game I played in, the characters went back in time to the Gold Age Era. When they got there, they were confronted by the fact that the woman were considered less and other such relaities of the time. One of the legendary heroes turned out to be a womanizing alcoholic. Time and history had polished him up and people chose to forget that half the time there was trouble he responded from the bar or a hookers bed.

OK... There ... Now I have what I needed to say <steps off of soapbox>

[Hugh Neilson]

I'm reminded of the recent JSA time travel arc where our modern Mr. Terrific's biggest difficulty contacting the GA character was his constant separation into the "black" sections. He certainly couldn't talk to him on the train - they couldn't ride in the same car!

[Teflon Billy]

I'm reminded of the recent JSA time travel arc where our modern Mr. Terrific's biggest difficulty contacting the GA character was his constant separation into the "black" sections. He certainly couldn't talk to him on the train - they couldn't ride in the same car!

While I understand the comic writer's intent in introducing this difficulty. It comes off as contrived to me, was there any reason why whites couldn't go back to the colored car? (I'm from Yankee Land and also too young to have known what the rules/conventions of the segregationist South were)

TB

[red_eagle123]

While I understand the comic writer's intent in introducing this difficulty. It comes off as contrived to me, was there any reason why whites couldn't go back to the colored car? (I'm from Yankee Land and also too young to have known what the rules/conventions of the segregationist South were)

TB

Technically no, there is nothing preventing a non-colored from entering the colored car. However in this story, The white Mr. Terrific didn't even know that he was being sought out (until later), so he had no reason to go into the other car.

Plus there's always the social stigma of being seen somewhere you're not supposed to be. So a White meandering into the colored's train car will be viewed with suspicion, unless it was some sort of authority figure (Train conductor, policeman, etc). So while there may have been no explicit rules disallowing the whites, there were implicit understood rules in place, enforced by socialization among ones peers.