Praise for Mr long

[tesuji]

In a recent post on the QnA board, Steve said...

"It's targeted by Common Sense Combat Value (CSCV), which states that, "It's a frickin' self-destruct device, just let it make him go boom." "

i really have to prise you for this. i nearly fell out of my chair and did spray coke. i haven't seen a rules response this good or this humorous in a long time.

Answers like these keep the "its a game people!" spirit alive and well.

Thanks Steve!

[Al_Beddow]

That one was so good I e-mailed the original question and Steve's ENTIRE answer to some friends of mine.

[Killer Shrike]

Hehe.

Yeah, well, all I can say is that I expected it to cause Mechanon to "explode" using either the AoE or Explosion rules to model the classic Predator tac-nuke self destruct or "It's gonna blow--RUN!!!!!" self destruct of various cheesy sci-fi movies and that it was just an oversite.

Otherwise, if his Self Destruct Mechanism just takes him out of the picture, why not just have it as something like "Self Implosion: EDM to THE VOID, 1 nonrecoverable charge, Trigger, SFX: leaves unusable husk behind", or something similar which literally just removes the character from play, which simplifies the matter nicely and is cheaper like so:

5<b><i> Self Destruct Mechanism: </i></b>Extra-Dimensional Movement (Single Dimension (Disentigration)), Trigger (+1/4) (25 Active Points); 1 Charges which Never Recover (-4)&#160



In my campaign, it will be offensive, something like this:

127 <b><i>Self-Destruct Nuclear Devastation Mechanism: </i></b>Killing Attack - Ranged 14d6 (vs. ED), Trigger (+1/4), No Normal Defense (ED Force Fields; +1), Does BODY (+1), Area Of Effect (68" Radius; +1) (892 Active Points); 1 Charges which Never Recover (-4), Extra Time (Extra Phase; -3/4), Delayed Phase (-1/4), No Range (-1/2), Incantations, Requires Incantations throughout ("This unit will Self Destruct in " + X + " seconds" where X = number of Segments until detonation, -1/2) [<b>Notes:</b> Standard Effect Rule: 42 Body]&#160;

[Zaratustra]

[innominatus]

Well, the whole "head flies away while the body self-destructs" power construct was done in an asinine way to begin with. If it's bought as Duplication, but the original form (the chassis) is destroyed, than the head can never merge back with the original and have Mechanon go back to his old, fully humanoid form until he spends 5 XP's to buy x2 Duplicates and build another one. Hmm...come to think of it, even THAT wouldn't work, since the extra Duplicates would just be copies of the disembodied head, not the original humanoid form. And what's the point of spending all those points on a self-destruct mechanism when it's all just special effects anyway? No one can actually "salvage" any gear from Mechanon's body and use it as their own.

<sigh> Sometimes I wonder if they even read their own rules before designing some of these characters...

Remember, kids: consider the SPECIAL EFFECT first, and the game mechanic will follow naturally. Mechanon's consciousness goes from being contained within a humanoid body to being contained strictly in a disembodied head. That means the power SHOULD be built as a Triggered Shapeshift (with a -1/4 Limitation on all his weapons systems "Not usable in 'head' form"). You could also use Multiform, but since the personality is the same as well as his powers (except for the aforementioned Limitation on his attack powers and some "Not Usable in 'head' form" Limitations you could tack on to some of his stats), Shapeshift would be the most logical choice. With either power, you would add an additional Limitation to indicate that Mechanon can't switch back to humanoid form until he has time to re-attach himself to a new body. You could also throw in a lengthy Set Up Time and possibly Concentration for preparing the Trigger to indicate the time it takes his automated factories to assemble a new body. The chassis, as mentioned before, is just a special effect; it's now an empty husk and the GM can just wave his hands at it and say, "It self-destructs and is now effectively junk." This would save Mechanon at least 100 points (not that he needs to worry about point balance, but point totals ARE a good rough indicator of how powerful a particular character is), as well as being a much more accurate description of what really happens when Mechanon exercises his "escape clause".

And while I'm at it (just as a sort of informal survey), how do most folks pronounce Mechanon's name? Is it meant to be "Muh-CAN-un" or "MEH-kuh-nawn"?

[Killer Shrike]

MECHA-non

[nHammer]

Originally posted by innominatus
Well, the whole "head flies away while the body self-destructs" power construct was done in an asinine way to begin with. If it's bought as Duplication, but the original form (the chassis) is destroyed, than the head can never merge back with the original and have Mechanon go back to his old, fully humanoid form until he spends 5 XP's to buy x2 Duplicates and build another one. Hmm...come to think of it, even THAT wouldn't work, since the extra Duplicates would just be copies of the disembodied head, not the original humanoid form. And what's the point of spending all those points on a self-destruct mechanism when it's all just special effects anyway? No one can actually "salvage" any gear from Mechanon's body and use it as their own.

<sigh> Sometimes I wonder if they even read their own rules before designing some of these characters...

Remember, kids: consider the SPECIAL EFFECT first, and the game mechanic will follow naturally. Mechanon's consciousness goes from being contained within a humanoid body to being contained strictly in a disembodied head. That means the power SHOULD be built as a Triggered Shapeshift (with a -1/4 Limitation on all his weapons systems "Not usable in 'head' form"). You could also use Multiform, but since the personality is the same as well as his powers (except for the aforementioned Limitation on his attack powers and some "Not Usable in 'head' form" Limitations you could tack on to some of his stats), Shapeshift would be the most logical choice. With either power, you would add an additional Limitation to indicate that Mechanon can't switch back to humanoid form until he has time to re-attach himself to a new body. You could also throw in a lengthy Set Up Time and possibly Concentration for preparing the Trigger to indicate the time it takes his automated factories to assemble a new body. The chassis, as mentioned before, is just a special effect; it's now an empty husk and the GM can just wave his hands at it and say, "It self-destructs and is now effectively junk." This would save Mechanon at least 100 points (not that he needs to worry about point balance, but point totals ARE a good rough indicator of how powerful a particular character is), as well as being a much more accurate description of what really happens when Mechanon exercises his "escape clause".

And while I'm at it (just as a sort of informal survey), how do most folks pronounce Mechanon's name? Is it meant to be "Muh-CAN-un" or "MEH-kuh-nawn"?

I don't know what annoys me more in this post; The insult to the creators of the game, or that I agree with what is said about Mechanon.

I pronouce it like Killer Shrike does.

[innominatus]

Well, to paraphrase Muhammed Ali, "If it's a dopey to make a character, it ain't insulting, baby!"

OK, so maybe I was deliberately being a bit caustic. I guess I get a little irked when I see something akin to papal infallibility assigned to game designers ("Mr. X says so, so it must be the One True Way!") NO ONE is above scrutiny; if they were, there'd never be a need to publish revisions or new editions of the rules! I've submitted my own share of questions/clarifications to the folks at HERO, and have been pretty uniformly unimpressed by the rulings, particularly the lack of explanation *WHY* "X" was the proper interpretation of the rules. But maybe that's just my own hang-up...

My other reason for being a bit nasty was that, I'm what Aaron Allston could call a "Genre Fiend". (Actually, the Champions Guru called me a "rules rapist" when I met him at a convention in '87 and offered him some ideas for "improving" some of his characters from the Strike Force supplement; but that's a story for another time...) In my estimation, there's no point in doing something unless you're going to do it right; and with the infinite flexibility of the HERO System's rules, there's no excuse NOT to construct powers like that in a logical and rules-consistent manner. Don't get me wrong; in my never-to-be-humble opinion, the HERO System is the best damn game on the market. Which is why I want to see the rules used in a common-sense and internally consistent manner, rather than having an endless number of arbitrary rules and "fudges" the way a certain 3rd-Edition gaming system that requires a 100-page monthly magazine just to explain the rules does (whom I will not embarass by naming directly...)

[tesuji]

Since i started this thread as a serious praise for Steve and his sense of humor and perspective towards "his own game" so to speak, i will make my will save and avoid responding directly to the obviously incorrect and simply inflamatory gratutious slam at other games systems.

I will now slip away quietly and return you to your "how to work the rules better for more bang fer buck" thread which seems to have lost the original sentiment entirely.

Although, I must confess, that doesn't surprise me.

The only question i still have hanging myself is...

What stat is the Combat sense combat vale CSCV derived from? Is it based on the player's INT/3, EGO/3, or DEX/3?

[Killer Shrike]

Originally posted by tesuji
What stat is the Combat sense combat vale CSCV derived from? Is it based on the player's INT/3, EGO/3, or DEX/3?

CSCV = GAME MASTER'S (INT/3)

+1 CSCV = 2pt Skill Level