Campaign Limits DCV and Armor

[Herolover]

Not sure where to post this, but this is kind of a system question.

The situation.
I am running a Standard Champions campaign right out of the book. I have set the resistance DEF at 13. So at most a character could have 13 rPD and 13 rED.

Now he book has set the CV limit at 8-13.

13 seems awefully high to me. I have a character that bought 30 DEX which gives him a 10 DCV. He also has a power that gives him +3 DCV for a total of 13 DCV and he isn't even a speedster.

A 13 DCV means that someone with a 24 DEX will have to roll a 6 or less just to hit him. Doesn't this sound like he has to high of a DCV?

I have set all attacks at 70 AP. So, what kind of limit would you put on DCV and defenses?

[Trebuchet]

In a standard 350 point game that character has spent fully 17% of his total CP on DEX. Why shouldn't he get the full value of the 60 points he spent on his DEX? Those are points he can't spend on high defenses or big attacks. I run a very high-DEX PC (DEX 43) in our campaign; trust me when I tell you it's not a guarantee that you won't get hit.

6- to hit is pretty tough, unless the attacker spreads his attack, or uses an AoE or EX attack, or has his own Skill levels, or uses an Ego-based attack, or... Well, you get the idea. It'll balance out in most cases.

[Herolover]

Thanks for the reply. This is why I ask these things. Sometimes I get carried away and think I have a problem when I don't.

So, you would still let him have the full limit on defenses too?

[tesuji]

Ok, well basic math is pretty straightforward.

if your DCV/OCV acceptable range is A to A+5 then the roll needed for A to hit A+5 will be 6- or iirc about 1 in 20. Against the average 10 ocv the hit chance is 1 in 4.

If yu want the range to not go that extreme, you need to shorten the span, maybe A to A+3 (low hitting high is about 1 in 4 likely.)

So maybe 8-11 is more your cup of tea, although you gotta figure that at that span you wont see too many people ever trying to be speedstars and rely on "i don't get hit often but when i do it hurts bad" since odds are good you will get hit at 1 in 4 during fights, probably during each fight. heck, remembering that 8 is only the low, not the average, then the chance of getting hit goes up a lot more, so really, speedsters only having a 1-2 cv edge over the average guy... means you will see lots more bricks than MA or Speedsters.

[Trebuchet]

Thanks for the reply. This is why I ask these things. Sometimes I get carried away and think I have a problem when I don't.

So, you would still let him have the full limit on defenses too?

Sure, why not? Those will be more points he can't spend on attacks and Skills. That's the beauty of a point-based system; it's self-regulating to a certain extent. And 13 rPD/rED isn't all that big a deal anyway; most characters are taken out by Stun from normal attacks, not BODY from Killing attacks. Just tell the player that if his character proves unbalanced after several play sessions you reserve the right to make him alter the character to be more reasonable. Besides, what's fair for the players is just as fair for the villains.

[Fox1]

Sure, why not? Those will be more points he can't spend on attacks and Skills. That's the beauty of a point-based system; it's self-regulating to a certain extent.

I don't agree.

HERO is by nature of the hardest systems to control. The points don't represent effectiveness to any reasonable degree.

[Blackjack]

I don't agree.

HERO is by nature of the hardest systems to control. The points don't represent effectiveness to any reasonable degree.

I'm not sure what you mean, Fox... If you spend character points on something, those points are gone - they can't then be used for something else. If a player wants to build a character that invests a substantial amount of his points in a particular direction, then he'll by necessity be weak in other aspects.

This certainly does not automatically mean that the character will be a problem. Look at speedsters. Many people (myself included) love playing them even though they require people to spend a LOT of points on a very expensive characteristic: SPD. This is why many speedsters don't have a lot of other powers other than "Speedster Power Tricks." They are "one-trick ponies" with an effective trick.

Some HERO players don't like high-SPD characters because they believe such characters are unbalancing. I can tell you from personal experience, all that SPD and Running doesn't do you much good if you get hit with an Entangle or englobed in a Force Wall that prevents you from accelerating to a high-damage velocity...

For a genre example: Where most of the JLA spent most of their points on Powers and generally few points on skills, Batman is built in the reverse: lots of points in Skills, few in Powers. (Let's call characteristics a wash, for the sake of this conversation...) I don't think anyone will argue that this makes Batman LESS efective than the rest of the JLA. Bats' skills make him just as useful as Superman's Flight or GL's Power Ring...

Can some points be spent more efficiently than others - of course. But efficiency comes with limits, if a GM is willing to use them, and everything in the game has a counter. If a character puts all his eggs in one basket, that's his choice, and most GMs can find ways to upset that basket when necessary...

[Bloodstone]

One of the problems with setting active point limits is that some people will try to reach as many of them as possible at once. Depending on campaign style, this can be unbalancing. Allowing a character to cap Defenses and cap DCV can be very risky, especially if other characters are only at one cap or the other.

Lets say you have a typical speedster, a brick and a superman clone.

Speedster decides his concept dictates dodging everythig, so he buys a 30 DEX and +3 DCV. He's at the DCV cap. He gets minimal defenses, posibly getting ones that are limited to when he is moving or when he does Move Through style maneuvers. Not much should hit him and when it doe, it will usually hurt. He has to worry a lot about AoE attacks and other things that negate his ability to dodge.

The Brick goes the opposite route. He maxes out his Defenses, but has minimal DCV as a result of a lower DEX and not having DCV skill lievels. He gets hit more often, but it hurts a lot less. So that he is still competent in combat, he spends a few extra points to beef up his OCV. He has to worry about exotic attacks that he may not have the right defense for or attacks that can overwhelm his defenses, if he doesn't have enough Stun and such.

Then along comes Superclone. He needs to be tough and he has to be able to dodge bullets. He maxes DEX, caps DCV and gets the best defenses he can afford. He still has plenty of points left over for other fun stuff, like attacks, super strength, flight and/or super senses. He doesn't have to worry about too much at all in a standard fight because what he doesn't dodge just wont hurt that much. Ths is not to say he's unstopable, as there may still be plenty of things he's not prepared for (like mental attacks).

The problem here is that, in a straight up brawl, anything that can really challenge the superclone is going to demolish the speedster or the brick. It's not that the superclone, brick or speedster are bad characters. It's just that when you put them in a game together you may run into some problems.

[Vondy]

Its not as big a problem as it first appears. First, he paid a lot of points for that DCV. Second, DCV doesn't necessarily reflect archetype (speedster, etc). And third, there are a gazzillion work arounds. A character with 24 DX and two levels with hand to hand combat, and some carefully selected maneuvers has narrowed the CV gap to 1. That seems like a reasonable construct to me. And then there are area of effect attacks (including AOE 1 HEX Accurate, mental attacks, and clever tactics. Lets find out how useful his 13 DCV is when a brick picks up a freight car and throws it at him, or the bloodthirtsty firelord villian ignites the feul tanker he's bobbing and weaving around.

[Publius]

I use limits on OCV/DCV not only for game balance issues, but also to maintain the tone of the game.

If you cap the rPD at 13 or something most pistol rounds will bounce off PCs (who take the max) but conventional rifles can still hurt them. This is totally different from the tone of a game where rPD can go to 25, and they regularly bounce rifle bullets off their chests. (side note: any gun with the "real weapon" disadvantage treats all resistant armor like a Force wall, if it is not breached there are no "stun lottery" issues as I automatically treat the multiplier die as a "1".) One is gritty, the other begins to slide into a cartoon.

I had a lot of success using a sliding scale to set campaign limits, the germ of which was an idea someone posted here, I set two main things:

Speed vs. Maximum Damage: Maximum (normal) DC= 20-(Speedx2), this means that the slow moving Brick (Speed 2) gets a heck of a whallup (DC16). (note: when I say "normal" I mean before adding a bonus from something like a Haymaker) This formula I have played with over time, resetting the 20 to a 25 (I have contemplated more) depending on the nature of the campaign.
OCV/DCV vs. Defenses: Maximum Defenses= 35-Dex, which meant that the somewhat Dex-less Brick (Dex 10) could bounce rifle rounds off his chest (rPD25) and the Speedster (Dex 25) could only get light defenses (rPD10). Sure people could buy extra OCV and DCV, but I would make them justify it for me in game. A +1 was comprehensive training, a +2 was professional level and a +3 was expert level, much beyond that you are into the Batman range of devotion and that was going to take time and effort in game rather than with simple points.

[tesuji]

I'll toss out a suggestion.

Your issue seems concern over someone maxing out multiple areas. That is a viable concern. The "min" becomes "max" issue has been seen many times before.

So, you set a "typical" range for the traits you are concerned with and an "exceptional" range for them and limit each character to only ONE exceptional trait.

Example, lowering the range for "typical", i might use:
Typical OCV: 7-11
Typical DCV: 7-11
Typical Attack DC: 8-12
Typical Def: 5r-15r, 15-25 total
Typical Speed: 3-6

For that batch, the "Exceptional" ranges might be:
Exceptional OCV: 12-14
Exceptional DCV: 12-14
Exceptional Qttack DC: 13-15
Typical Def: 16-20r, 26-35 total
Exceptional Speed: 7-9

Again, each character would be permitted to be exceptional in only one category.

Now, which area they choose would not be one thing I limit. if their notion is for a fast brick who has speed 9, thats fine. This isn't a class based game after all.

[Herolover]

Wow I am getting some great suggestions. So many in fact I don't know which ones to use first


I like the idea of the "Typical" and then the "Exceptional" ranges. Also, I like Publius's ideas on Speed vs Maximum Damage and CV vs Defenses. Not sure which one I would go with right now.
[Quote]
Publius said
(side note: any gun with the "real weapon" disadvantage treats all resistant armor like a Force wall, if it is not breached there are no "stun lottery" issues as I automatically treat the multiplier die as a "1".)[\Quote]

Is this official or just a house rule?/

Note: I am trying to get my PC's as close to "official HERO campaign limits" as possible. Why? I want to.

[RDU Neil]

Thanks for the reply. This is why I ask these things. Sometimes I get carried away and think I have a problem when I don't.

So, you would still let him have the full limit on defenses too?

Here you've stumbled on one of the reasons I have a problem with "set" campaign limits. Such limits are often interpreted as "minimums" by players... munchkin or not. I can't say whether I'd allow high dex and maximum rDefenses... because I don't know the character.

While I have guidelines to what is "too much" I tend to look at things as a marker. "DC of your blast is 15... ok, let's look at it. Might be ok, but it is cracking the average. Defenses past 30? Ok, let's look at it. Might be ok, but that is pushing the high end of what I was looking for."

I tend to establish "What is normal?" first. Then ask players to "build to concept, within the points, note where you might not have enough points to fully get to concept... that is what EXP is for." Then... if the CONCEPT of the character fits a 30 Dex character who can bounce rifle fire... and the concept fits my game... ok!

Sometimes players might look at things like 8-13 defenses... and go for the highest number (high is GOOD! ) without realizing what this means. Do they understand that 13 rPD will bounce almost all small arms? Is that in concept for them? Do they understand the kind of story you want to tell, as a GM? Does the concept fit? Do they understand just how FAST a 30 Dex can be?

Just my preference, but I prefer to talk to players in "Play Experience" terms. Give them an example of how their character will play out... make the numbers mean something in terms of play. This can help everyone better understand what the game is about... and whether their character fits that game.

YMMV, but this works for me. Good luck.

[Citizen Keen]

Just remember - it's only 2 points for a +1 CSL with a single attack. One brick with a +8 to his punches (the attack being defined as a Punch-effect Basic Strike) will lay that 13 DCV character out, and it only costs 16 points.

[Trebuchet]

(side note: any gun with the "real weapon" disadvantage treats all resistant armor like a Force wall, if it is not breached there are no "stun lottery" issues as I automatically treat the multiplier die as a "1".)[\Quote]

Is this official or just a house rule?/

Note: I am trying to get my PC's as close to "official HERO campaign limits" as possible. Why? I want to.

I'm pretty certain that's one of Publius' house rules, but I like it so much I may try to adopt it to our campaign. (In our game Resistant defenses start at only 6 rPD for my character; whereas the brick has 24 rPD. And yes, my character has been Stunned by a mook with an AK-74 rifle and a '3' attack roll.)