Graduated Figured Characteristics

[Gary]

One problem with Hero is that certain breakpoints for characteristics seem to be most efficient. For instance, con should always end in 3 or 8 for maximum efficiency. I was thinking of gradually giving figured characteristics instead of a big burst at the efficiency breakpoints.

For Str:

1 +1 stun
2 +1 PD
3 +1 stun
4 +1 Rec
5 +1 stun
6 +1 PD
7 +1 stun
8 +1 Rec
9 +1 stun
10 no bonus (except for the +1D6 damage)

For Con:

1 +1 stun +2 end
2 +1 ED +2 end
3 +1 stun +2 end
4 +1 Rec +2 end
5 +1 stun +2 end
6 +1 ED +2 end
7 +1 stun +2 end
8 +1 Rec +2 end
9 +1 stun +2 end
10 +2 end

For Dex:

1 +1 Dex rolls
2 +1 OCV or DCV
3 +1 OCV or DCV (must be the opposite of 2)
4 +1 Dex skill rolls
5 +1 OCV or DCV
6 +1 OCV or DCV (must be the opposite of 5)
7 +1 Dex rolls
8 +1 OCV or DCV
9 +1 OCV or DCV (must be the opposite of 8)
10 +1 Dex skill rolls

For Int:

1 +1 Perception with 1 sense
2 +1 Int skill rolls with up to 3 skills
3 +1 Int rolls (non skills or perception)
4 +1 Perception with all senses (not cumulative with 1)
5 +1 Int skill rolls with all int skills (not cumulative with 2)

I was thinking that this system could allow efficient characters with 21 con or 17 int or 22 dex instead of most characters having 23 con, 18 int, and 23 dex.

Thoughts?

[Chris Goodwin]

My thoughts: No offense, but.... is the current system really so broken that it needs this fix in particular?

[ShadowRaptor]

I don't think its broken but it does alleviate the characters from basically having the same stats all the time for the same effectiveness.

Under the normal rules there really is no reason to have anything different than a 23 DEX, 23 CON, and 18 INT. If you can pay for the points that is.

[Gary]

Originally posted by archer
My thoughts: No offense, but.... is the current system really so broken that it needs this fix in particular?

It's not broken but in my gaming career, I've found virtually every PC character to have 18, 23, 28, or 33 con. Consider that going from 21 to 22 con gives you 1 pt in figured characteristics, but going from 22 to 23 gives you 5 pts in figured characteristics. A player would have to be insane to buy a 22 con. At least with spreading out the figureds, you would get a far broader range of characteristics for PC's. Players could buy any characteristic level and not worry about wasting points or maximizing efficiency.

[Old Man]

I agree that the current system is very granular and that it would be better if every stat point counted--but there's got to be a method that doesn't require a chart like this. I know character creation in Hero isn't supposed to be simple, but come on.

[Talon]

Originally posted by Old Man
I agree that the current system is very granular and that it would be better if every stat point counted--but there's got to be a method that doesn't require a chart like this.

There is -- get rid of the figured characteristic formulae and just buy each stat on its own.

[DrSavant]

First of all, I am glad that you noticed this problem.
BUT, it is not so much a flaw in the system as it a flaw
in the players/GM. MUNCHKINISIM.

If you can learn to recognize this in your players and
yourself, then hopefully it can be overcome.
Some signs of MUNCHKINISM:
STR/CON ending in an odd number for +1 to stun
EGO 11 for +1 ECV, for a non mentalist
INT ending in 3/8 for +1 Perception roll

The main "cure" for MUNCHKINISM is;
Maturity and Creativity.

Maturity- For not trying to get "over on the system"
***For realizing that heroes are MUCH MORE
then numbers (This is IMPORTANT)
Creativity- For focusing on what characters are really
about !!

[Chris Goodwin]

Read John Kim: http://www.darkshire.org/~jhkim/rpg/...eakpoints.html

[Ron]

Gary,

I agree with you that HERO's characteristics rules, although not broken, could benefit from a revision. As a matter of fact, this is one of the few points (perhaps the only one) in which I would prefer to see a major revision of the rules. Dr. Savant argues that this is only a problem with munchkin players. I disagree. HERO's character generation is point based and thus there is no good reason why a player would expend points in something which would give him no return. There is not a problem of maturity, but rather of the existence of useless characteristics value steps.

[Chris Goodwin]

Let me take back my first statement on this thread.

Does the change make it more fun for you? If the answer is yes, then go for it!

That's what everything boils down to at the core.

[nharwell]

Originally posted by archer
Read John Kim: http://www.darkshire.org/~jhkim/rpg/...eakpoints.html

Thanks for the link. Although I dropped COM long ago, I never considered getting rid of INT. John's solution actually fixes most of my complaints about the lack of granularity in Hero System stats....

[nharwell]

Originally posted by DrSavant
First of all, I am glad that you noticed this problem.
BUT, it is not so much a flaw in the system as it a flaw
in the players/GM. MUNCHKINISIM.

If you can learn to recognize this in your players and
yourself, then hopefully it can be overcome.
Some signs of MUNCHKINISM:
STR/CON ending in an odd number for +1 to stun
EGO 11 for +1 ECV, for a non mentalist
INT ending in 3/8 for +1 Perception roll

The main "cure" for MUNCHKINISM is;
Maturity and Creativity.

Maturity- For not trying to get "over on the system"
***For realizing that heroes are MUCH MORE
then numbers (This is IMPORTANT)
Creativity- For focusing on what characters are really
about !!

I tried to restrain myself, but I feel obligated to reply to this condescending post. If you truly feel this way, then why run or play with a point-based system like Hero at all? Simply let players chooses their abilties and powers. After all, if they are "real roleplayers", they'll make balanced characters!

A fundamental assumption of the Hero System is that points are generally equal -- points in one ability should be roughly as useful (in game, not necessarily in combat) as the same points in another. Players aren't "munchkins" for making effective characters by using the rules as they are written...

[Gary]

Originally posted by DrSavant
First of all, I am glad that you noticed this problem.
BUT, it is not so much a flaw in the system as it a flaw
in the players/GM. MUNCHKINISIM.

If you can learn to recognize this in your players and
yourself, then hopefully it can be overcome.
Some signs of MUNCHKINISM:
STR/CON ending in an odd number for +1 to stun
EGO 11 for +1 ECV, for a non mentalist
INT ending in 3/8 for +1 Perception roll

The main "cure" for MUNCHKINISM is;
Maturity and Creativity.

Maturity- For not trying to get "over on the system"
***For realizing that heroes are MUCH MORE
then numbers (This is IMPORTANT)
Creativity- For focusing on what characters are really
about !!

Have you ever built a PC character with a 22 str, 22 con, or 17 int?

[Gary]

Originally posted by Old Man
I agree that the current system is very granular and that it would be better if every stat point counted--but there's got to be a method that doesn't require a chart like this. I know character creation in Hero isn't supposed to be simple, but come on.

My system isn't very complex at all. Every 10 pts of str or con gets you what you would get normally. You would only use the chart for the ones digit. My system for int simply means that each point gives you a benefit rather than no benefit for the first 4 pts, and then full benefits at the 5th pt.

[Trebuchet]

It's an interesting idea, Gary, but I think it's a solution to a non-existent problem. There is already a bonus for "sub-optimal" STR and CON: The character gets both additional figured characteristics (19 STR/2= 10 STUN vs 9 STUN for 18 STR; ditto for CON.), but a character with 1 higher CON is harder to Stun. I ran a brick with 19 CON for years.

Higher DEX means you go first in a Phase; no small bonus. I've seen plenty of martial artists with DEX 30 just so they could beat those cost effective 28 and 29 DEXers.

INT is the only thing that doesn't give such bonuses, but in all reality INT doesn't really get much direct use. Your method gives bonuses for much less than just buying skill levels in a INT-based Skill or with PER roll.