v3 Feature Discussion: Group Files (HDG)

[Simon]

OK....I'm working on the first major new feature for HDv3 and would like to bounce some ideas off of folks and get some advanced feedback.....and make sure that I really think through the whole process, as the more I look at this feature, the more I begin to think that it may be the "defining feature" of v3.

The basic concept is simple enough: character associations. At its base, this will allow you to have all of the various forms for a multiform character in one file....or a character and his followers, vehicles, bases, duplicates, etc. The idea is easily extended to allow for other associations, like campaign groups, etc.

So we end up with the following basic features in an HDG file:

1. Multiple characters. Maybe all characters in a group, all of the characters in a multiform, a group and their base, etc.

2. Any custom templates used by any of the characters in the file

3. Any custom rules used by any of the characters in the file

4. Any images assigned to any of the characters in the file

5. Any export templates assigned to any of the characters in the file

6. The name of the group file (this can be the main character name, the group name, campaign name, etc.)


So far so good. You'd be able to bundle multiple characters together and then HD would have a chunk of enhanced features to make used of these bundles (allowing associated characters to be selected when defining vehicles/bases/multiform/duplication/etc. and having the points calculated automatically, etc.).

The idea that is knocking around in my head right now is to extend this idea still further....particularly on the "campaign group" front.

I like the idea of a GM creating a basic campaign package which would contain any/all campaign rules, custom templates, export templates, etc which he wants to use in his campaign. This file would be distributed to the players and they would use it to create their characters, adding them into the file. The GM would receive the submissions from each of the players and use a "merge" function within HD to merge all of the separate HDG files into one campaign file. Sort of a distributed creation cycle.

Going with something like this would allow for various nifty things like having campaign prefabs automatically loaded, specifying campaign rules (and likely prefabs/export templates) by character template, etc.

In short, a bunch of nice features to facilitate the creation of a campaign group.

Which brings me (finally) to my questions:

1. Does the basic idea make sense to folks?

2. Do you think it would be a good feature to have?

3. I'm still trying to flesh out just what the campaign creation process should be. How files should be associated at the outset, how the merging of the player submissions should work, etc. I'd be curious to hear folks' thoughts on this.

[JTesla]

1. Makes sense to me.

2. I think it would be a great feature to have. I wouldn’t use it every single time I use HD, because I tend to make some random things. However, I love Multiform, and could see using this with Summon as well. At least those are the two main areas I would use it for right now.

3. One thing that would be important would be the ability to pull something out – unmerging. One reason would be just to cut and paste into different files. It also would be a way for a person to create something in their file, pull out the relevant portion, and send it to the person that merges it with the master file. This might be the easiest way to prevent people from modifying the campaign rules, the GM can then relax knowing that only character information is being merged in.

[Simon]

Absolutely. You'll be able to add and remove characters from the group file.

It does bring up a good point, though....I'll need to prompt when a character is added to see if you want to add the template as well, or reassign with one of the ones from the group file.

One other thing that this functionality set will allow is for an expanded use of the "Save As Template"/"New Character From Template" functionality -- when you do this, I'll prompt to include any loaded prefabs in the template file...and then load them automatically when you build a new character from the template. This should allow for more elegant handling of things like package deals and such. It will also allow GMs to include various package deals in their group file (and for players to select which package they want to base their character upon).

[lemming]

Sounds like a good complicated feature.
It would have a cascading feature so that a multiform character could be added to an existing group?

[Simon]

Yup...though the multiform would be "flattened" when added to the group. The multiform characters would still be associated with the main character....but all of the characters would be listed at the same "level" within the group.

At least, that's the way that I'm envisioning it now....

Doing it that way could lead to some interesting possibilities down the road (shared expenditures -- like a group base, etc.). Likely won't make the initial release, but could be added in pretty easily.

[Edsel]

1. Multiple characters. Maybe all characters in a group, all of the characters in a multiform, a group and their base, etc.

2. Any custom templates used by any of the characters in the file

3. Any custom rules used by any of the characters in the file

4. Any images assigned to any of the characters in the file

5. Any export templates assigned to any of the characters in the file

6. The name of the group file (this can be the main character name, the group name, campaign name, etc.)

I like this idea, before HD we used to use an Excel spreadsheet with all members of the team in the same workbook. All my VIPER people were in another workbook, etc.

1. Does the basic idea make sense to folks?

2. Do you think it would be a good feature to have?

3. I'm still trying to flesh out just what the campaign creation process should be. How files should be associated at the outset, how the merging of the player submissions should work, etc. I'd be curious to hear folks' thoughts on this.

1. & 2. Yes, see my reply above.

3. I like all the suggestions about being able to and and remove characters from a bundle. Perhaps you could apply a sort of preference file to the bundle that could also be used with individual characters to ensure that they are created using the same rules, templates, etc. that the bundle has.

[Barton]

1) Yes
2) Good idea.
3) Hope you will allow files to be removed/added easily (mabye a tree format with folders or something like that).

[Simon]

3. I like all the suggestions about being able to and and remove characters from a bundle. Perhaps you could apply a sort of preference file to the bundle that could also be used with individual characters to ensure that they are created using the same rules, templates, etc. that the bundle has.

That's what I'm thinking...I'm currently figuring on prompting when a character is added to the group to determine if you want to assign one of the group templates/rules fules (if applicable).

[Sketchpad]

Sounds kind of interesting Dan ... I'd be interested in seeing it implemented

[Simon]

3) Hope you will allow files to be removed/added easily (mabye a tree format with folders or something like that).

See above...no tree format (the files will all be flattened as they are added to the group), but it should be easy to add/remove individual files from the group.

[Heroman]

Sounds pretty cool! Would make for easier transportation in general. The elements of what this offers could be great for stuff like the MF and Dup like you said, also excellent Vehicles that carry other vehicles (like spaceships carrying escape pods/fighters/etc) where you can get the auto-point calculation.

A general question about how this grouping is established, though, from your post. Do you envision a GM 'collecting' characters and building package items based on the custom stuff it finds on the sheets, or it being more of a process of validating anything imported against an established package? Your bullet list kinda looks more like the package has custom stuff used by the characters. while later talking about a GM distributing a package.
I personally would prefer the second. It seems more useful to provide a package against which imported sheets are validated. To me that fits with the overall gaming process better. GM determines what is/is not allowed, tells the players (with this, it will also be the GM providing the player with the campaign package). Player make his character, sends the character to ther GM who then imports it into his personal copy of the package.
It would be cool, though, to allow the GM to add stuff new in imported sheet if he so desires.

Were you going to also have prefabs in the pack (not listed in the bullets, but you do mention it later)? That would be excellent.

Not sure if it is on the v3 list or not, but will you have custom adv/lims available on the package (or in the v3)? This would be great for campaign based stuff where the GM has taken time to work up a comprehensive list of adv/lims tailored to his game.

Will you be able to 'export' all non-players (so the settings, prefabs, etc)? I would see this useful to give a character-less package to a new player after the game gets going or maybe if you add a bunch of package materials (or fix mistakes, hey we are not perfect ), being able to re-send the core package to players for their own updates without sending them all the other PCs.

Is there any 'package' page information other than the group/package name? Even if it were a large text box, that could be nice to embelish on the package.

Will there be any export template which will show all of the custom things? Something that would be great for both "HD Impaired" new players (those not yet enlightened to HD) and for making up one's own campaign docs would be the ability to dump out all of the custom bits, like the game settings, allowed power levels, custom skills and other bits. I love HD, but also like hard copy when in the game, something like the old Campaign Ground Rules sheets. If the tags are available (even if the time to work up a nice sheet is not, we have some skilled exporters here) that would be cool.

As far as format, sounds like it is a good fit for how OO packages files; basically just a zip of control files and content files....anything in the zip can be associated and keeps the disk cleaner...

This sounds like a great start to really make HD more of a campaign tool rather than a quick PC generator.

[Simon]

A general question about how this grouping is established, though, from your post. Do you envision a GM 'collecting' characters and building package items based on the custom stuff it finds on the sheets, or it being more of a process of validating anything imported against an established package?

Both. I'm thinking that the GM will be able to build a "characterless" package (containing prefabs, templates, campaign rules, etc.) and give this out to players. Players will create their characters in that group file and then send it back to the GM. The GM will be able to merge the players' group files into the master, providing a single group.

When a character is being merged into the group file, if it uses an template or rules file that is not already in the group file, there will likely be a prompt asking if you want to import the template/rules files as well or reassign the template and/or rules file that the character uses to one of the ones already in the group file.

Were you going to also have prefabs in the pack (not listed in the bullets, but you do mention it later)? That would be excellent.

Sorta....I'm currently figuring on allowing templates to contain prefabs. Basically, this will be an extension of the "Save As Template" functionality, allowing you to specify what prefabs to automatically load when you select a given template. Useful for a number of things, including a more elegant approach to package deals.

Since group files can contain templates, by extension, this will allow them to contain prefabs as well.

Not sure if it is on the v3 list or not, but will you have custom adv/lims available on the package (or in the v3)? This would be great for campaign based stuff where the GM has taken time to work up a comprehensive list of adv/lims tailored to his game.

Unless they're defined in a custom template, doubtful. There's no real mechanism for that.

Will you be able to 'export' all non-players (so the settings, prefabs, etc)?

Possibly....it will mainly depend on the final implementation of the whole thing. The main idea is that all of these files (except for the characters) will be created normally as individual files (prefabs, templates, export templates, etc.). Those files will still exist after the entities have been joined into a group file, so I'm not sure that an export is really needed.

Is there any 'package' page information other than the group/package name? Even if it were a large text box, that could be nice to embelish on the package.

Possibly...haven't given it much thought, yet.

Will there be any export template which will show all of the custom things? Something that would be great for both "HD Impaired" new players (those not yet enlightened to HD) and for making up one's own campaign docs would be the ability to dump out all of the custom bits, like the game settings, allowed power levels, custom skills and other bits. I love HD, but also like hard copy when in the game, something like the old Campaign Ground Rules sheets. If the tags are available (even if the time to work up a nice sheet is not, we have some skilled exporters here) that would be cool.

That's not really up to me. There's not much to really export, but if there is any information that is missing/not-exportable, folks will be able to request additional tags. I don't necessarily agree with the idea of exporting all of the facets of the group file....but some information from the group level may be desirable.

[Starwolf]

This sounds really cool. Will you be able to "load" multiple seperate group files into HD at the same time. This would be great for exporting encounter specific movement charts without having to load a lot of individual files as we have now.

[Simon]

Sure. The way I'm currently envisioning it, you'll load a group file just like a character file. The entry under the "Open Characters" menu will list the group name as a "sub menu". Opening the sub menu will list all of the characters in the group.

In the case of a multiform character (or whatever), the "group name" would be the character name. The individual charcters in the group file could be named appropriately based on their form.

[Kabluey]

I like most of what you're planning, but I do have a few small concerns about the group file idea.

I really like how you can group the templates/rules/etc. all together in one file. But having the characters in that file seems like a bit of a potential pain.

When the characters are first created, I think your proposal works just fine. But (and perhaps I'm unique in this respect) I have my players send me a character sheet every time they update it, such as adding in experience points. So if I understand what your planning correctly, when the players send me a new sheet, I will have to first save the sheet (already have to do that now, of course), and then merge each into the master group file. And I have to do this every time someone sends me a new character. This isn't a lot of effort I realize, but it can get annoying when you're doing it repeatedly.

If the character files are left external, however, then the merge step becomes unnecessary. This is what I do in a plugin I wrote for myself that groups characters. It just creates a small xml file that lists all the characters in the group, and when I load the file, the plugin automatically loads all the characters. When a player sends me a new file, I just replace the old character sheet and I'm done.

This isn't a big deal or anything, but I tend to think external character files will in the end be less problematic and more flexible.

As another issue, I would also like to suggest is set the export template for all the characters and preview them simultaneously.

Thanks for all the cool work with HD.