Lets cut the crap...

[zornwil]

I totally agree that how easy you find hero to be, is directly related to how you try to learn it. I picked it up pretty quick, but i had a great GM and a low powered game.

My first Champions GM, and the only one I had before I started GMing, was one of the absolute worst ever (in any system). Good player, terrible GM. He did teach a little but not much, especially as we only played one session and that was only 1-on-1, so I had to learn it mostly on my own as I was the only one who wanted to GM "that superhero game". Good times, though. Anyway, yeah, I don't disagree it'd have been easier, but I don't recall any real learning curve with Champions at all. Actually, it was the first system I really bothered to learn "as is" in depth, I found it more natural than other systems. So I'm very prejudiced from my initial experience. Still, I am very conscious of and accept that the current version is significantly harder to learn for a number of reasons.

PS - in large part, the veneer of balance and the consistency in points is what really made me attracted to it. That and the logical damage system. Those made it seem "right" to me. Other systems seemed (and most were) arbitrary and felt like nothing more than a collection of rules...which is how all my early RPG attempts at design were, too. Back, then, though, I wasn't nearly that aware about all these issues.

[zornwil]

Oh, I agree completely, really. I love that Steve is there so we can pick his brain. Not that I always feel obligated to go along with his opinion, but I consider it a very valuable asset. Many of the things from the FAQ I even agree with. I didn't say I had a problem with, "all," or even, "most," of the stuff. But the point is that, as you say, it should not have all been stuffed into the core rules. I would even go so far as to say, "complications," rather than, "clarifications."

I'm also not trying to place blame on anyone: not Steve Long, not DoJ in general, and not us here on the boards. I am simply stating my opinions about the system, however it got to be the way it did (however, if what you say is true about our pushing the system to go the way it has--and I think you may be right to some degree--maybe we should put a little more care into considering the things we are really arguing about and how they are presented).

EDIT: BTW, as time goes on I learn of more and more 5ER changes that don't seem to be simply clarifications. 99%, 98%, 96%....

There was a reason for my wink there...

[prestidigitator]

There was a reason for my wink there...

Sorry. Missed that. I'm probably taking things way too literally this afternoon. Time to be off, I guess. Argue with you again soon.

[zornwil]

Sorry. Missed that. I'm probably taking things way too literally this afternoon. Time to be off, I guess. Argue with you again soon.

No worries, I thought you might have missed it. Looking forward to arguing or agreeing with you or in-between as the case may be!

[Jeff T.]

I can't speak for these days at all fairly, but when I first encountered a D&D game I was completely confused. Of course not having the books didn't help. When I did have them (at which point it was, I believe, the original AD&D set, which I only borrowed, never owned), I thought it was terribly confusing and that was one of the main motivations for drastically changing it. I found Champions in 1983, presumably 2nd edition, to be far less confusing on introduction.

But I woulid really not want to compare that too much to today's picture, where HERO is of course more complicated than Champions was and from what I hear d20 is more internally consistent than AD&D was.

This makes me remember a funny story. I learned D&D in the early 80s with a friend. I don't remember it being very difficult to learn. I do remember though, that when we started finding others who played that there was ALOT of disagreement over the rules. The biggest was HP. If anyone recalls the basic and expert sets have classes and races as the same thing...and another player came over with a 6th level elf who had like 160 hit points! That's cuz the level showed hp as

1st level - d8
2nd level - 2d8
3rd level - 3d8
4th level - 4d8
etc...

He was adding them exponentially and by 6th level he'd rolled the eight sided die about 20 times!

I can't believe I still remember that...