Another Suggestion for Dropping Figured Characteristics

[prestidigitator]

I have normally been opposed to suggestions for making Figured Characteristics non-figured, but I have recently realized that the correlation between Primary Characteristics and Figured Characteristics can largely be considered Special Effects.

For that matter, some people seem to have problems with the links of damage to Strength, Perception to Intelligence, and even CV to Dex and Ego. Now, the links probably make sense in a real-world sense, but why require them?

Consider the following. Thoughts and feedback are appreciated.

Characteristic  Starting Value  Cost
--------------  --------------  ----
Strength         10 (11-)        1
Dexterity        10 (11-)        1
Constitution     10 (11-)        1
Intelligence     10 (11-)        1
Perception       10 (11-)        1
Ego              10 (11-)        1
Presence         10 (11-)        1
Comliness        10 (11-)        1

Body             10              2
PD                2              1
ED                2              1
Speed             2             10
Rec               4              2
End              20              0.5
Stun             20              1

Run               6              2
Swim              2              1
Leap              2              1

HDam            2d6              5
PDam            2d6              5
OCV               3              5
DCV               3              5
EOCV              3              5
EDCV              3              5
MD                0              1

Benefits (Differences from current system)

Strength
Determines lifting capacity and ability to hold or break out of Grabs (Entangles may be subject to Str and GM's option, either for free or by taking a -1/4 Limitation, but are normally broken with an appropriate form of damage instead). May also be used for Disarms if it makes dramatic sense. May be rolled for some acts of physical might not otherwise accounted for in the system (pulling oneself up onto a ledge).

No longer influences HTH damage at all. See HDam, below.

Dexterity
Used for the Dive for Cover maneuver and as a basis for Agility Skills. May be rolled for some acts of physical dexterity (such as keeping one's balance when the floor starts tilting).

No longer determines OCV and DCV. See OCV and DCV, below.

Constitution
Used to determine whether a character has been Stunned. May be rolled for acts of exertion (such as prolonged running).

Intelligence
Represents a character's ability to reason and as a basis for Intellect Skills.

No longer determines base Perception Roll. See Perception, below.

Perception
Represents a character's awareness of his/her surroundings and the accuteness of his/her senses. Roll may be increased for one Sense with 2-point Skill Levels, or an entire Senese Group with 3-point Skill Levels.

Ego
Used to resist Psychological Limitations and Metal Attacks. May be rolled for other applications of willpower (such as resisting temptation).

No longer determines ECV. See OECV and DECV, below.

Presense
Used to resist Presence Attacks and as a basis for Social Skills. May be rolled for social interactions not covered by Skills.

No longer determines Effect Roll for Presence Attacks. See PDam, below.

Comliness
Used as a Persistant version of Presence. Can be rolled in a Complimentary fashion and substituted for Social Skills when the character doesn't actually interact with the, "target;" the effects of such a substitution will be limited at best (e.g. a police officer observing the security film may not become ready friends with the character as might be the case for use of the Seduction Skill, but may be inclined to pass over him as a suspect initially because he doesn't, "look the type").

Body
Is Body. No changes.

PD, ED, Speed, Rec, End Stun, Run, Swim, Leap
No changes. All simply have starting values rather than some being figured.

HDam (Hand-to-Hand Damage)
Used in every circumstance where Strength is used to apply or increase damage in the existing system. +1d6 (+1 DC) costs 5 points as indicated, but +1/2d6 (+1/2DC) may be purchased for 3 points.

PDam (Presence Damage)
Determines the Effect Roll for Presence Attacks.

OCV, DCV
Now Characteristics unto themselves. +1 to each costs 5 points based on cost of DCV CSLs.

OECV, DECV
Now Characteristics unto themselves.

MD (Mental Defense)
No longer based upon Ego; Ego already serves as a kind of defense against Mental Attacks, both in being the threshold for Effect Rolls and in providing Breakout Rolls.


Costs
Characters should be expected to spend about 50% more on Characteristics with this system. Here is an equivalence and cost comparison to the existing system:

EDIT: Note that I am listing the value of Str in standard Hero, but many house rules increase its cost to 2 per point.

Old                Cost  Equivalent                      Cost
---                ----  ----------                      ----

Str +10            10    Str +10, PD +2, Rec +2,         10+2+4+5+2+10=33
                            Stun +5, Leap +2, HDam +2d6

Dex +3              9    Dex +3, OCV +1, DCV +1          3+5+5=13

Con +10            20    Con +10, ED +2, Rec +2,         10+2+4+10+5=31
                            End +20, Stun +5

Body +1             2    Body +1, Stun +1                2+1=3

Int +5              5    Int +5, Per +5                  5+5=10

Ego +5             10    Ego +5, OECV +1, DECV +1        5+5+5=15
                            (MD +1)                      (+1=16)

Pre +5              5    Pre +5, PDam +1d6               5+5=10

Com +2              1    Com +2                          2

Per +1 (roll)       3    Per +5 (value, +1 roll)         5

Sense Per +1        1    SL: Sense                       2

Sense Group Per +1  2    SL: Sense Group                 3

[Trebuchet]

This is not only at least as complicated as the current system but considerably more expensive for character building, especially with supers. I simply can't see any benefits to this method unless your intention is to lower overall Characteristics in a campaign, which can be more easily accomplished with fewer points or NCM.


"If it ain't broke, don't fix it."

[Hugh Neilson]

This is not only at least as complicated as the current system but considerably more expensive for character building, especially with supers. I simply can't see any benefits to this method unless your intention is to lower overall Characteristics in a campaign, which can be more easily accomplished with fewer points or NCM.

"If it ain't broke, don't fix it."

Hear Hear. The existing balance between, say Bricks, Martial Artists and Energy Blasters would definitely change under this approach. Others will have to decide whether that's a good or bad thing.

Speaking of NCM, there would be a lot more NCM's required with the above system.

I'm curious why BOD gets singled out as the only 2 point characteristic. Seems to me letting PC's become less killable for 1 point per BOD wouldn't break the game.

I suspect we'd see a lot more Drains (maybe other adjustment powers) under this system. DCV Drains, for example, making targets easier to hit. Let's make it AE-1 hex so I can hit those high DCV targets. Draining targets to negative primary stats now becomes much easier, and that's a very effective way of taking out, say, a combat expert with no agility skills (so maybe a 13 DEX).

Once we hit NCM totals, sill levels become an even better choice. "Well, I can pay 10 points to buy my DEX up 5, or I can pay 5 points for a skill level with all DEX skills. I wonder which is more efective..."

[casualplayer]

It's a perfectly viable way to do Characteristics but, unfortunately, you would have to recost most Powers also. The system is entertwined so that things that you least expect have a huge interdependency on innocuous things. I personally would have liked to have seen Figured Characteristics go the way of the dodo with 5th Ed, but have the actual characteristics (PD-STUN) remain. Where were you when they were making 5th?

[prestidigitator]

This is not only at least as complicated as the current system but considerably more expensive for character building, especially with supers. I simply can't see any benefits to this method unless your intention is to lower overall Characteristics in a campaign, which can be more easily accomplished with fewer points or NCM.


"If it ain't broke, don't fix it."

Well, as I said my intent was to decouple things that are linked because of the game designers' ideas of how combat is tied to physical and mental traits. I and many others don't really have a problem with this, but some don't like the ties between Str and damage, Dex and combat value, Int and Per, etc.

To be sure there are ways of uncoupling them in the current system, but this requires taking Limitations that are at best very subjective, or using SLs and CSLs with Advantages, Limitations, in Frameworks, or whatever. This seemed a lot easier.

As for being as or more complicated, I don't see how. There are no longer any formulas to remember; just costs, and most of them are either a consistent value (1 or 5) in this system or the same as they were in the old.

[Hugh Neilson]

As for being as or more complicated, I don't see how. There are no longer any formulas to remember; just costs, and most of them are either a consistent value (1 or 5) in this system or the same as they were in the old.

Sheer numbers make it more complicated.

[Guzalot]

Sheer numbers make it more complicated.

Agreed. Still, if it works for your campaign and your players like it then go for it.

[prestidigitator]

Hear Hear. The existing balance between, say Bricks, Martial Artists and Energy Blasters would definitely change under this approach. Others will have to decide whether that's a good or bad thing.

Maybe. I'm not sure. A lot of types seem to put points into Characteristics, just different Characteristics. For example, martial arts and, "energy blaster," types seem to put more points into Dex and Movement, and Bricks more into Str, Con, and defenses. I did try to keep things consistent in terms of the amount that costs increased, so most things cost about 50% more than they did (a few cost more like double, but that is limited).

Speaking of NCM, there would be a lot more NCM's required with the above system.

I suppose. NCMs can be the same for most things, and for others (such as damage and CVs) you can just use the value at the NCM of the Characteristic to which the used to be tied (HDam/PDam 4d6, OCV/DCV/EOCV/EDCV 7, and I suppose 20 for Perception to make things consistent).

I'm curious why BOD gets singled out as the only 2 point characteristic. Seems to me letting PC's become less killable for 1 point per BOD wouldn't break the game.

Well, as you'll notice I placed Body with the Characteristics that are normally Figured. Why? Well, first because you never use a Body Roll (9+Body/5). Second, because I did want to keep things roughly consistent in terms of the price increase. If Body cost 1, then Body+Stun would cost the same as in the existing system rather than going with the 50% more scheme. It could always be dropped to 1 without much issue probably.

I suspect we'd see a lot more Drains (maybe other adjustment powers) under this system. DCV Drains, for example, making targets easier to hit. Let's make it AE-1 hex so I can hit those high DCV targets. Draining targets to negative primary stats now becomes much easier, and that's a very effective way of taking out, say, a combat expert with no agility skills (so maybe a 13 DEX).

That might be true. However, isn't this already an issue with Str and Pre? Drop a character to negative values there, and they can be pretty ineffective. Wouldn't you like to see a way to reduce someone's CVs other than Negative CSLs? It's pretty expensive to do if the cost 5, and at least we wouldn't be trying to come up with Dex Drains that are Limited to only reducing CVs or something.

Once we hit NCM totals, sill levels become an even better choice. "Well, I can pay 10 points to buy my DEX up 5, or I can pay 5 points for a skill level with all DEX skills. I wonder which is more efective..."

True. Of course, isn't that already an issue? If I hit NCM with my Dex currently, I can pay 30 points to increase it by 5, or I can buy THREE OVERALL SKILL LEVELS for that! Hmm. Let me think about that....

[prestidigitator]

I'm stronglyl considering dropping figured characteristics for my new game. My costs will be as follows though:

Strength: 10 base, +1 per 1 point.
Dexterity: 10 base, +1 per 2 points.
Constitution: 10 base, +1 per 1 point.
Body: 10 base, +1 per 2 points.
Intelligence: 10 base, +1 per 2 points.
Ego: 10 base, +1 per 2 points.
Presence: 10 base, +1 per 1 point.
Comeliness: 10 base, +2 per 1 point.
Physical Defense: 2 base, +1 per 1 point.
Energy Defense: 2 base, +1 per 1 point.
Speed: 2 base, +1 per 10 points.
Recovery: 4 base, +1 per 2 points.
Endurance: 20 base, +2 per 1 point.
Stun: 20 base, +1 per 1 point.

Cool. I just thought it would be interesting to go the one logical step further. It's a fun mind game, anyway. I may play test it at some point, or at least do some character building and see how it goes.

[prestidigitator]

It's a perfectly viable way to do Characteristics but, unfortunately, you would have to recost most Powers also. The system is entertwined so that things that you least expect have a huge interdependency on innocuous things. I personally would have liked to have seen Figured Characteristics go the way of the dodo with 5th Ed, but have the actual characteristics (PD-STUN) remain. Where were you when they were making 5th?

Maybe. I tried to keep the combat effects about the same cost, so that they were still consistent with Power costs and such. For example, each 1d6 of HTH Damage still costs 5 points; OCV and DCV cost the same as buying a 5-point DCV level (they also cost together roughly what it would normally take for you to raise your Dex enough to bump them: +3 to Dex in the old system costs 9; +1 OCV, +1 DCV in the new system costs 10).

EDIT: Oh, by the way: where was I when they were making 5th? Still busy trying to get my friends to play 4th.

[Kristopher]

No Thank You.

[Doc Democracy]

The only thing I have against dropping figured characteristics is that it seems like fiddling around the edges. If I was going to rework characteristics then I think I'd get rid of characteristics completely.

That would streamline the system as it would remove another way of getting package deals. Characteristics are a throwback to first generation rpgs.

I would give each character the basic abilities that the current starting characteristics give - 2d6 normal damage, CV3, 10 BODY etc etc just like the 6" running that everyone gets.

Anything more that you wanted, you would buy as a power.


I realise that this is a radical departure from current 5ER but if you want to change things then go the whole way and do it 'properly'


Doc

[Hugh Neilson]

Maybe. I'm not sure. A lot of types seem to put points into Characteristics, just different Characteristics. For example, martial arts and, "energy blaster," types seem to put more points into Dex and Movement, and Bricks more into Str, Con, and defenses. I did try to keep things consistent in terms of the amount that costs increased, so most things cost about 50% more than they did (a few cost more like double, but that is limited).

I've never found Energy Projectors pump as much into characteristics as Bricks (especially) or even Martial Artists tend to. EB's don't, in my experience, buy any movement that's currently linked to a stt. They'll see an increase in costs due to CON and DEX losing figured abilities, but that's about it. Again, I haven't done a detailed analysis, but I see Bricks having more to lose.

Martial Arts become a clear "must have" too. +1 OCV/+3 DCV is now worth 20 points all by itself!

That might be true. However, isn't this already an issue with Str and Pre? Drop a character to negative values there, and they can be pretty ineffective.

Now it will be an issue for everything. Is that an improvement? "Ha! Your Perception is negative, so you must make a PER roll to perceive anything!"

Wouldn't you like to see a way to reduce someone's CVs other than Negative CSLs? It's pretty expensive to do if the cost 5, and at least we wouldn't be trying to come up with Dex Drains that are Limited to only reducing CVs or something.

CHange Environment also works, but that's beside the point. And with the cost of everything else going up, maybe the cost of a negative skill level should stay at 5. That's what you're charging to raise it by 5!

True. Of course, isn't that already an issue? If I hit NCM with my Dex currently, I can pay 30 points to increase it by 5, or I can buy THREE OVERALL SKILL LEVELS for that! Hmm. Let me think about that....

That 30 subtracts 5 from the cost of SPD, provides OCV, DCV, faster reactions in combat, better rolls for simultaneous action, complementary skills of the same type, etc. And you have selected the most expensive stat to base that comment on.

Move to INT or PRE and +5 over NCM costs 10, twice as much as a level that will make you better with some aspects of the stat. Right now, I see skill levels as reasonably balanced with stats, especially stats at NCM.

[Doc Democracy]

Most of the comments here simply indicate how interlinked much of the system (inevitably?) is.

You can't change the characteristics without considering those powers (like drains etc) that were designed to predate upon them. This is an ecology and you have to consider all the aspects of changes imposed on that ecology.

[Doc Democracy]

Yeah, that's a little radical.

My reasons for dropping figured characteristics is to primarily deal with the strength bonus bricks get, but also to bring everyone back to the same level playing field. It also allows you to have more interesting character combinations without needing to buy-back characteristics. So you want the strong but unhealthy brick? No problem. Just don't buy him as much Con, End, Rec, and Stun. That way you don't need to deal with the "only allowed to sell back one figured characteristic rule" as well.

I'd have thought you'd be interested in a change like this as it would possibly lead to a lesser required upfront investment in learning the system - don't worry about characteristics - just learn the power and skills systems.



I was thinking of you when I wrote it!


Doc