Loop model of RPGs and why long chargen is okay

[buzz]

I saw this interesting tidbit in an ENWorld review of Castles & Crusades:

I’m a computer programmer by trade. To be a good computer programmer, you have to write efficient programs. If you write a program that processes a million records, and it does this inside a loop, anything that doesn’t add value inside that loop just eats up time as it is processed. In a million loops, unnecessary processing can end up wasting a lot of time. Let’s consider the basic model of an RPG:

Build_characters() ;
Do {
Play_the_game() ;
If (TPK)
end_of_campaign = true ;
}
While ! (end_of_campaign) ;

That’s it in a nutshell. Obviously, there are other factors that can cause “end_of_campaign� to be true, like people moving away, or one of your players having an affair with your wife. An individual character can die in the middle of a game, so that player will have to build a new character in the middle of the campaign as well. Hopefully that doesn’t happen often. The point I’m trying to make is this: things that happen outside of the loop only get executed once. Character creation doesn’t *need* to be a 15 minute process. It can take 3 hours, and it doesn’t affect the speed of the inner loop – the campaign loop. It’s nice when it *can* happen quickly. Like if Joe gets eaten by Beholder 1 hour into Saturday night’s game, it might be nice if Joe can come back in with a new character before 1 am. But this doesn’t happen very often (character death in the middle of a game, that is; Beholders eat people all the freaking time). There is very little value add in shortening the character creation process because it really has little affect on the actual game play.

This seemed relevant as a counter to the usual complaints against HERO's complexity. It's one most of us are familiar with ("The complexity is in chargen, but then in gameplay it's no biggie"), but I thought this was a good expression of it. Particularly because it's a good argument in *favor* of complexity as long as that complexity pays off in simplicity and enhanced gameplay while in the "campiagn loop". I find this very true in HERO.

I find that, by the time I'm done with creating a HERO PC, I know it like the back of my hand. Every capability is spelled out in very exacting terms, and I know very explicitly how said capabilties interact with other characters' and the game environment.

Anyway, I just thought this was a nifty observation.

[Killer Shrike]

Yes, this basic outlook sums up my views on character creation as well -- the best form of character creation is one that removes as many decisions and confusion from actual play as possible.

The problem is, that is a very logical way of thinking of things and few people are very logical.

[Roy_The_Ruthles]

i totally agree. For the sci fi game i'm in, we made characters as early as november and didn't play till jan, so everyone spent literally months figuring out what their personality was like and building their character just right.

[Derek Hiemforth]

The problem is, that is a very logical way of thinking of things and few people are very logical.

Repped.

I also agree. To my way of thinking, the more detailed (or better defined, or however you want to say it) a character is made via the chargen process, the less time in gameplay is taken up with figuring out what the character can/should do.

On a tangent, this dichotomy might also play a role if Hero ever reaches a point where the core rules have to be split into two books, purely from a practicality standpoint. 5ER is pretty huge already, and has reached the point (in my experience) where it's occasionally difficult to locate the answer to a specific question, simply because there's so much data there to search through.

So if the rules do ever need to be split into two volumes, one useful approach might be one volume for Stuff That You Use Mostly Outside The Game Session (i.e., the character creation material), and one volume for Stuff You Use Mostly During The Game Session (i.e., combat rules, etc.),

[Roy_The_Ruthles]

i find the Index in HERO fifth edition revised to be critical, and it's much better than for example DnD

[prestidigitator]

What about us poor friggin' GMs?

do
{
   buildCharacter();
} until (campaignSettingDone());

[Onyxclaw]

ok, yes I can definately see how the time it takes to make a character is irrelevent and cleans up issues. I'll agree this is true for PCs.

It is not always true for NPCs. It should not take me a year to make the characters for a couple sessions.

Now don't get me wrong, I love how simple it is to play a character once they are made. And I perfectly agree with players taking all the time they need to make their chracters so that they are compeltely laid out in every necesary detail and how that doesn't negatively effect game play at all once it starts. I love how the flow is so smooth once everything falls into place.

I just wish it was a little simpler to actually make a character. Or that my brain could more easily convert the world that I dream up to one that is actually translatable to HERO. Cause as it is, I've spent the better half of the summer trying to make NPCs for my upcoming game, and I have maybe a handful.

[Black Lotus]

I agree with the ENWorlder's post. What a well-thought-out statement.

[Roy_The_Ruthles]

I just wish it was a little simpler to actually make a character. Or that my brain could more easily convert the world that I dream up to one that is actually translatable to HERO. Cause as it is, I've spent the better half of the summer trying to make NPCs for my upcoming game, and I have maybe a handful.

You have the same problem as converting from any media, like book to film. It takes a while and is hard, and you lose stuff along the way. same deal (but you're doing a good job keeping close to the original material)

[buzz]

It is not always true for NPCs. It should not take me a year to make the characters for a couple sessions.

It doesn't have to. There are just two things you need to remember:

1.) Use published material. HERO has many "bestiaries" for each of its major genres, not to mention the FH grimoires, the USPD, etc.. There also lots of character archives out on the Web. Even if what you find is not exactly what you need, it's likely close enough to modify with minimal effort.

2.) NPCs don't always need to add up. All you need to stat out is what characteristics and powers are relevant to the scenario: SPD, BODY, STUN, CV, notable CHR rolls, powers, skills, and relevant distads. And you can just assign appropriate values; you don't have to go through the actual chargen process. At least not for every single NPC. Save the full-blown chargen for the big NPCs who will be recurring characters in the campiagn.

[Onyxclaw]

the only problem is there aren't any pregens I can use for the bulk of these characters. For characters that don't matter sure. But for my Ketera, no way. I don't like th pregens for most of the monsters either, and I do own the beastiary.

I have tried to use archived characters. It usually takes a day or two to convert them even if they are the "right" thing. I found an Alien (like from the movie) premade that needed retweaking and spent a day and a half redoing it.

I am only doing the minimal for my NPCs, and they aren't stacking up points wise. It's the power creation that's hard.

Since it is based on a preexisting world that I designed years ago it is very very hard to translate into hero to my satisfaction. It doesn't help that this is a very high powered game either...most of my NPCs are 600-2200 points. And unfortunately they have to be.

AND since it's not a normal campaign, IE no party, and characters can go where ever they want whenever they want and create the story around each of them, any character that apprea must be ready to at least be semi reoccuring. I know I made myself a monster, but, I'm finding this system extrememly hard to create it in.

....though I love it so *hugs collection of HERO books*

For everything other than NPC generation I love this system and agree with the post you found whole heartedly. It's just sometimes frustrating. Not that I'll let that discurage me.

[Fox1]

the only problem is there aren't any pregens I can use for the bulk of these characters.

I find all the publish pregens to be useless. Frankly they are just plain build wrong for the style in which I use HERO.

Very much a case of Strength=Weakness. I can get to nearly the exact style of play I want in many settings, but at the cost of having to go it alone. Such is the nature of construction style rules.

In any event, the 'generate once', play a million times is a player PoV- not a GM's one. And it's really at the GM level that it truly matters.

[prestidigitator]

In any event, the 'generate once', play a million times is a player PoV- not a GM's one. And it's really at the GM level that it truly matters.

Maybe. In the interest of introducing new players to the system it is generally the players' PoV that is most important as the GM often knows it quite well. I find this to be the place where system complexity is most dangerous; new players can become daunted, but existing players and GMs (in general) tend to be pretty comfortable and happy with the system no matter its complexities.

I was being a little facetious in my previous post.

[Fox1]

Maybe. In the interest of introducing new players to the system it is generally the players' PoV that is most important as the GM often knows it quite well. .

Depends upon one's players. I find they break into two basic groups (doesn't everything?).

There are those who love playing with the rules. HERO is prefect for this group, lots to play with.

There are those who want to play the game, not the rules. HERO is fine for these except for chargen- something that such players can off load to the GM: "Give me a character sort of like Beast Boy, but it's female with this personnality and isn't green".


So frankly, I consider the player PoV to meaningless. If they are in group 1, they will like HERO on its own terms or not. If they are in group 2, all the 'work' falls on me.

I think any problems with chargen that exist comes from one of two sources- GMs that *force* HERO chargen on players who would rather not, and players who *want* to master chargen in HERO- but who suck at it. Neither group is of any interest to me whatever.

[austenandrews]

Right, the problem here is that for a game system to thrive, it must be able to attract new players. Necessarily complex character generation daunts new players. It can also be daunting to experienced players who don't have a lot of time. And it makes short-runs & one-shots less attractive.