The Quintessential BODY

[Mister E]

The Quintessential BODY.

Okay, because of the arguments against BODY and Damage being exponential in nature, (and many of them are very valid and true), I have gone back to square-one, and meditated on the subject in a effort divest myself of all prior potentially false misconceptions, and get to the heart of the issue: what is BODY?

[All page references are from 5er, because that's the only book I'm using now, in an effort to become more familiar with it, and because it's the most current book.]

Glossary definition (pg 16) - "BODY: (1) A Characteristic representing how much injury a character can withstand before dying."

[I would add on to this definition, (and I'm sure everyone would agree with me), "...and how much structural damage an object can withstand before being broken."]

Characteristics Comparison Table (pg 40) - BODY: Weak = 1-2, Challenged = 3-5, Average = 6-10, Skilled = 11-13, Competent = 14-20, Legendary = 21-30, Superhuman = 31+.

[I think it's interesting that "Average" and "Competent" have two separate categories. From what I've gathered from this Discussion Board, it's because of the fact that in the original builds of superheroes, back in 1st ed., all of the example characters had fairly inflated stats... especially for DEX and CON, and that this trend has continued on to this day for game-play reasons... which is fine.]

Characteristics Benchmarks Tables (pg 41) - BODY: Weak = Infant, Challenged = Child/elderly person, Average = Average person, Skilled = Pro Football Player, Competent = Rasputin/Horse, Legendary = Elephant/Rhinoceros, Superhuman = Hercules/Thor/Whale.

[Now I would say that Rasputin (a man that had to be stabbed dozens or hundreds of times, poisoned, and drowned to be killed... and it's rumored that he lived); and a horse; were something more than "Competent". But this totally jives with my current interpretation of the BODY stat, points-wise. The 'average' average human has a BODY of 8.]

Determining The BODY And Defense Of An Object (pg 447) - "On the Object BODY Table, an object's BODY depends on its total mass; each doubling of mass is +1 BODY. The GM may wish to increase an object's BODY based on its size or the materials it is made of."

[This pretty much spells it out for everyone. Any real arguments against BODY being exponential in nature, after this, better be very creative or inspired. Otherwise, the argument will showcase the persons lack of the basic concept of what the word exponential means. Regardless, many of you have made many excellent arguments championing the linear aspect of BODY in game play, to your credit.]

Object BODY Table (pg 449) - 100kg (man) = 10 BODY.

[Fascinating. The 'average' average person has a BODY of 8, but here, we see that as an object, people should have a BODY of 10. This, to my knowledge, is representative of the 'ineffable' drive/physicality/spirit of sentient beings in a story-telling/game environment... and I extremely like this. Your 'average' average person lives a bland/mundane existence, and lacks that 'special something' that would make them both heroes, and objects with the proper BODY for their mass/size and composition. Player Characters, (and NPC's of note), on the other hand, live... breath... and eat heroic lives. They are creatures beyond the kin of normal physical capacities, and are able to push their bodies (and BODY's) to impossible limits through the sheer force of their being the focal-point of destiny and story-telling. Other characters are just ridiculously tough, which is also cool.]

Cheers. Link

[gojira]

Determining The BODY And Defense Of An Object (pg 447) - "On the Object BODY Table, an object's BODY depends on its total mass; each doubling of mass is +1 BODY. The GM may wish to increase an object's BODY based on its size or the materials it is made of."

[This pretty much spells it out for everyone. Any real arguments against BODY being exponential in nature, after this, better be very creative or inspired. Otherwise, the argument will showcase the persons lack of the basic concept of what the word exponential means. Regardless, many of you have made many excellent arguments championing the linear aspect of BODY in game play, to your credit.]

I'll just fling myself into this debate here. *flings* Note the emphasis I've added above. The exponential curve for body is a suggestion, an average. The GM can change it when it makes sense to do so. So can various genre books.

It's all about fun and common sense. Don't like the earth having only 90 body? "It's a pile of dirt held together by gravity. You can't blow it up, it'll just fall back together again. It's gotta have like 10,000 body." So it goes. No biggie, just make up a rule that makes sense to you and move on.

Getting back to a slightly more realistic example, my Champions ("Champions II -- The SUPER Supplement!") lists a battleship as DEF 21 and BODY 26. An aircraft carrier is DEF 10 and BODY 27. If those seem a little low to you, just increase 'em.

Happy?

[Black Lotus]

I'll just fling myself into this debate here. *flings* Note the emphasis I've added above. The exponential curve for body is a suggestion, an average. The GM can change it when it makes sense to do so. So can various genre books.

Exactly what I said in the "HERO is Broken" thread.

EDIT: And yes, the Size Chart is a tool. It helps us estimate approximately what size, mass, BODY, etcetera a particular object we want to make MIGHT be, so we have a reference point, and a place to start.

The thing is, I've seen both exponential AND linear qualities inherent to Strength, Body, Defense, mass, and size; it depends on what we're comparing, how we're comparing them, and various other situational modifiers/ factors. The lifting capacity provided by Strength increases exponentially. The damage done by Strength in melee combat is linear in nature.

[Mister E]

The damage done by Strength in melee combat is linear in nature.

Honestly, I've heard your arguments, and I don't want to be rude, because I like you, but I don't think you know what you are talking about...

+5 STR = +1d6 Normal Damage = + 1 BODY = x2 Mass

Everything about this equation is simply an aspect of the game mechanics of the HERO System, except for the "x2 Mass" part; which is the real world/physical/tangible effect part. And it's exponential.

+5 STR allows you to both lift an object that is twice as heavy, and destroy an object that is twice as big, with one hit. Peroid. Nobody can effectively argue this. Yes, there are situations where this (in my opinion) very obvious expomential aspect becomes difficult to see clearly, but it is still there, and is always there. Taking Math 111; spending 30 minutes fooling around with a scientific graphing calculator; or simply understanding the difference between exponential and linear; should reasonably be enough to convince anyone of this.

Regardless...

What did you think of my discourse on the BODY stat? I thought the last paragraph was really good. Did you already know all this stuff? Do you feel like you understand BODY better? Am I a total idiot? Is there something you would like to add?

[Black Lotus]

Yes, Mister E, it's true. The effects of Strength are exponential. If you consider a human to be essentially an object, with no attributes allowed to be purchased, yeah, it's exponential. At its base. With nothing else added, no modifications made by the GM, no outside factors taken into account -- which is fine. Man, how in the world did I allow myself to get dragged into this argument? Warp9 got about 300 posts all on the SAME THREAD from arguing about this kind of thing -- I should have known better. It's hard to argue about an ambiguous system. Of course, ALL RPG systems get ambiguous at times.

On your entry, I thought it was well-researched, well-thought-out, and well-written. It did increase my understanding of BODY, at least technically; however, I've never had an in-game difficulty crop up from not understanding the dynamics of BODY, so I may not get much practical use out of it.

I only think its silly because this argument is... I won't say a waste of time, but it sucks time up at a good clip and doesn't give much back to people except (in some cases) bitterness from being out-argued, etcetera. I recognize the value of the arguments as a purely "scientific curiousity" exercise, but as to their practical value, I am not so certain.

.........MADDOX IS GOD!!!

[Mister E]

I'm sensing sarcasm...



Oh well. Yes, the BODY of a character is different (and more) than the BODY of an object. But a character is an object, and that should be taken into consideration when rolling a new one up. BODY doesn't really follow the same rules that all of the other stats follow. It is something very different, in many ways, and it took me a while to really figure that out, because it wasn't explicitly described anywhere in the book.

.........MADDOX IS GOD!!!

?

[Black Lotus]

I'm sensing sarcasm...

But you forgot the effusive praise:

On your entry, I thought it was well-researched, well-thought-out, and well-written.

?

Maddox runs The Best Web Page In The Universe. Google it if you want to find out.

[Mister E]

But you forgot the effusive praise

Oh, I caught it. I'm a total ego-maniac.

[PhilFleischmann]

You've done a fine job presenting how the rules make BODY for inanimate objects exponentially related to their mass.

However, I have never encountered *any* game, in *any* RPG system where inanimate objects were the stars of the show.

And "mass" is not an essential game concept. Most of the time, you apply your STR to the opponent directly. Unless you run an all-brick campaign, where >50% of character actions involve lifting/throwing heavy objects, or a "inanimate object" focused game where the main goal is to do property damage, I can't see any reason to call the system "exponential."

What color is a basketball? I'd say it's orange. I acknowledge that there are black lines on it, but I wouldn't say that a basketball is black. The biggest and most important parts of the HERO system are linear. I acknowledge that some parts are exponential.

Damage is applied linearly. Defenses are applied linearly. Powers are purchased linearly. Movement, experience, speed, CV, skill levels, etc. - all linear.

Sure, you might want to argue (or simply rule for your games) that 5d6 = X joules of energy and 6d6 = 2X joules of energy. Or that 10 STR = Y newtons of force and 20 STR = 4Y newtons of force and 30 STR = 16Y newtons. Such a ruling has no significant bearing on the game, which deals with STUN and BODY, not with joules and newtons.

If you want to make the argument that the game simulates the world in an exponential way, I don't have a problem with that. I might not fully agree, but I wouldn't argue about it. But the *system itself* is primarily linear.

[Enforcer84]

Wait. I thought Salma Hayak was the Quintessential Body. Live and learn I guess.

[ghost-angel]

Wait. I thought Salma Hayak was the Quintessential Body. Live and learn I guess.

RIMSHOT!

I'd rep you but the system won't let me... something about spreading it around, dagnabbit.

[Mister E]

Okay, so it is generally agreed upon that the BODY of objects in the HERO System goes up by +1 for every doubling of size. But for whatever reason, many people have a hard time excepting the fact that this has ramifications on their characters.

Let me tell you, there is nothing to be afraid of.

This knowledge doesn't have to stifle your creativity. It's only there so you can make informed decisions when making your characters. Think of it as a baseline guide, and then note the text I highlighted in red, on my initial posting for this thread.

The Growth and Density Increase Powers are yet another example of this exponential connection between Size, Mass, BODY, STR, and Damage... as well as several other game mechanics; and are specifically and explicitly intended for characters.

[Kristopher]

Characters, though, aren't tied to any exponential system of BODY -- that only applies inanimate objects, assuming the theory that they are is correct.

[NuSoardGraphite]

You've done a fine job presenting how the rules make BODY for inanimate objects exponentially related to their mass.

However, I have never encountered *any* game, in *any* RPG system where inanimate objects were the stars of the show.

Never played a Mecha-oriented campaign, have you....

[NuSoardGraphite]

Characters, though, aren't tied to any exponential system of BODY -- that only applies inanimate objects, assuming the theory that they are is correct.

I've applied the exponential system of Body to my characters for years. I'm loathe to make characters who have Body scores near that of a 20th century Tank, unless of course, they are supposed to be as tough as said Tank (in a supers campaign, or maybe a Cyberpunk or Space Opera cyborg or something)

I very rarely give characters Body scores above 15. And that only if that character is big. In fact, in my writeups on the message board, I often equate Body scores with mass/size for characters and oftentimes I'm criticized for it.

"Body is indicative of will to live, not size!"

Tell that to Godzilla.

Sure, I'll give a couple of bonus Body points to a character who has an extraordinary "Will to live", but only a couple. If a character is small and skinny, he's going to get a Body of 8. A skinny guy with a strong will to live will get a Body of 10 or 11 instead. Not a Body of 18. I just don't see it that way.

The way I see it, a strong Will To Live will keep you alive (and awake) longer so you can finish that important task such as throw the Dark Lord's Ring of Power into the lava before expiring. A strong Will To Live, does not make you harder to chop in half with a sword. Which is exactly what more Body makes you.