Odd Skill Enhancer Question

[Hawksmoor]

Copied this from the HERO Questions Forum. I wanted to address the answer in a place I could actually respond.

I know how this would work in the campaign, and GM ruling, but was curious what the official answer would be.

First SFX -
A character who is fairly competant in secret ID, and has a number of Knowledge Skills.

This character gains characteristics (including INT and such) as well as powers when she powers up. At this point her skills also get a boost,.

The mechanics decided for the SFX of this boost was buying Scholar only in Hero ID. Now all of the 2 pt KS's that are at 11- in Secret ID become full INT skills with the addition of Scholar in Hero ID.
Note- she also gets a number of skill levels in Int skills in Hero ID as well.

The question is, is this formally legal?

I aske because while I make my own rulings, I like to know what the official is in most cases, so I can explain differences to people new to my group.

I would say not. You can jerry rig, like Simon says, a Private Adder to represent the OIHID. But Skill Enhancers are like mini power frameworks for skills. Such a drastic change is beyond a simple OIHID.

Stylistically I would think that Multiform is the power to use. I know, I know never use a power to represent something a limitation could do better, but in this case the character is getting like the Wisdom of Solomon.

Hold on a Sec.

Why not buy INT (only to make skill rolls) OIHID instead? Makes the character better at the skills she knows without having to resort to a clunky skill enhancer.

Hawksmoor

[Lord Mhoram]

That could work too.

To me this one is all in the special effects. The character in question has bonuses to all characteristics in Hero ID, as well as a couple of levels in Int Skills.

As to the Limited int question - I have always found Characteristics limited "to skill rolls only" to be unaesthetic - if you want bonuses to skills buy up the skill -which in essence is what a skill enhancer does.

The idea here is that there is two secret IDs and when they merge, the combined mind makes connections (and uses little bits from each other) that they don't have when seperate.

I played around with Multiform and Duplication, and settled on strait duplication, because the whole "two secret IDs" in almost never going to be a bonus, but a drawback, and paying points for both mutliform and duplication for a drawback seems too much.

So I was looking at ways to increase her abilities in Hero ID, and I have never thought of skill enhancers as "cost saving measures" but "increase in ability of skills" so that was the construct I came up with.

I actually don't find the limited skill enhancer clunky. Design taste and all that.

[Big Willy]

Private Adder

VIPER's newest recruit? Destined for great things if he passes his officer's exam...

[Hugh Neilson]

Why not just buy +1 level with skills, OIHID?

I normally see the skill enhancers used to buy a lot of skills at base value, not to get +1 to them.

[PhilFleischmann]

There isn't anything strictly illegal about a Skill Enhancer, OIHID. The only question is, are you really being limited by the Limitation? Is the character going to find himself, with reasonable frequency, in his non-hero ID, and wanting to use the heroic-level of his skills, and not able to simply change into hero-ID, use the skill, and change back? If so, then go for it. It's only a one-point savings.

[mikesama]

That could work too.

To me this one is all in the special effects. The character in question has bonuses to all characteristics in Hero ID, as well as a couple of levels in Int Skills.

As to the Limited int question - I have always found Characteristics limited "to skill rolls only" to be unaesthetic - if you want bonuses to skills buy up the skill -which in essence is what a skill enhancer does.

The idea here is that there is two secret IDs and when they merge, the combined mind makes connections (and uses little bits from each other) that they don't have when seperate.

I played around with Multiform and Duplication, and settled on strait duplication, because the whole "two secret IDs" in almost never going to be a bonus, but a drawback, and paying points for both mutliform and duplication for a drawback seems too much.

So I was looking at ways to increase her abilities in Hero ID, and I have never thought of skill enhancers as "cost saving measures" but "increase in ability of skills" so that was the construct I came up with.

I actually don't find the limited skill enhancer clunky. Design taste and all that.

Actually to skill rolls only useally works out as an actual disadvantage:

DEX: No bonuses to CVs or combat order or speed
STR: No bonus to damage or secondary stats
Con: no bonus to secondary stat or makeing it harder to be stunned
Bod: No harder to kill, no secondary stat bonus
Int: No bonus to perception
Ego: no bonus to ECVs or protection from mental powera
Pre: No increased defense or offense presence
Com: uh nothing really

Of course you can always by int skill levels and the like.

[Simon]

There isn't anything strictly illegal about a Skill Enhancer, OIHID. The only question is, are you really being limited by the Limitation? Is the character going to find himself, with reasonable frequency, in his non-hero ID, and wanting to use the heroic-level of his skills, and not able to simply change into hero-ID, use the skill, and change back? If so, then go for it. It's only a one-point savings.

Actually, there is.

Strictly illegal. Against the rules. Yadda yadda yadda.

[Mister E]

I would just go with bumping the INT up, and any other stats you wanted to. OIHID can be put on characterists, and it sounds like it would fit snuggly with the SFX.

[Lord Mhoram]

Actually, there is.

Yep, that's why I asked the question, to find out if what was going to be done was going to be cannon or house-rule.

Now I know.

[PhilFleischmann]

Actually, there is.

Strictly illegal. Against the rules. Yadda yadda yadda.

Does it actually say somewhere in the book that you can't put limitations on Skill Enhancers?

[Simon]

Does it actually say somewhere in the book that you can't put limitations on Skill Enhancers?

It doesn't say that you can't (explicitly) in the book. Nor does it say that you can (explicitly) in the book.

One would assume that the fact that the book gives good discussion about the application of Modifiers to abilities like Skills, Powers, etc. and none whatsoever to the application of Modifiers to Skill Enhancers would be a good hint that it is not legal....but the lack of any statement to that effect means that there is ambiguity. Which is pretty much a given in a rule base as broad as the Hero System.

And so you consult the guy that writes the rules (Steve Long) and ask him if such a thing is legal or not.

And he says "No."

Pretty straightforward.

[zornwil]

I can see the ruling from a balance perspective but otherwise I don't see a logical basis for it, so curious if that was the only rationale. Skill Enhancers are pretty cheap already, anyway.

[PhilFleischmann]

One would assume that the fact that the book gives good discussion about the application of Modifiers to abilities like Skills, Powers, etc. and none whatsoever to the application of Modifiers to Skill Enhancers would be a good hint that it is not legal....

Perhaps you would assume that, and you're well within your right to do so, but I do not. Since you can apply Limitations to Skills, and Skill Enhancers are right there in the Skills section, I would think they come under the same rules.

but the lack of any statement to that effect means that there is ambiguity. .... And so you consult the guy that writes the rules (Steve Long) and ask him if such a thing is legal or not.

And he says "No."

Pretty straightforward.

Hmmm... Ambiguous and straight forward? At the same time?

If I believed in "because the game designer said so," I'd still be playing D&D.

[Simon]

Perhaps you would assume that, and you're well within your right to do so, but I do not. Since you can apply Limitations to Skills, and Skill Enhancers are right there in the Skills section, I would think they come under the same rules.

Ah....I get it now. You're of the "if it doesn't say it explicitly in the rulebook, it's not part of the game" school of thinking. Nevermind that the rulebook is the printed word attempt by Steve Long to communicate the rules of the game and that when there is a question over something in the rulebook (or, more often, something that is not in the rulebook) he answers it, improving on his communication of the rules.

Have fun with that. Just don't expect others to be quite so....blinded by the printed word.

Hmmm... Ambiguous and straight forward? At the same time?

Don't pretend to be dense....it's not becoming of you. The book left some ambiguity as to the rules, so the guy that wrote the book was asked. He said "No." -- which removed the ambiguity and left a rather straightforward answer.

If I believed in "because the game designer said so," I'd still be playing D&D.

So why, may I ask, is the rulebook any different? That's just what Steve Long is saying....it's still Steve Long. Is it the order in which he says things? Or the timing? Or is it the form?

Again, the rulebook is just Steve's attempt to communicate the rules that he has developed. Like any form of communication (especially when dealing with as wide of a subject as the full rules of the Hero System), there will be some things left out, some things which are not communicated properly, and somethings which are simply miscommunicated. The good news is that we have Steve right here to answer any questions that we have and to elaborate upon or correct himself where needed.

[Southern Cross]

Fair enough.And Skill Enhancers are cheap enough at a cost of 3CP each.And considering their cheapness,there's not much point in buying them with Power Limitations anyway.