Two-Weapon Fighting and Ambidexterity

[Black Lotus]

All right, another simple question. I've been ignoring this until now, but I figured I'd bring it up and see what everyone else thought about it.

Ambidexterity is a 1- to 3-point Talent that offsets the default -3 penalty for using an off-hand to do ANYTHING -- attack, use a skill, make a Characteristic roll with your off hand (for example, a righty grabbing a ledge with his left hand to catch a fall). This is useful in and of itself, of course.

But let's consider Two-Weapon Fighting. If you purchase both Ambidexterity (at full 3-point strength) and Two-Weapon Fighting, some of the utility of Ambidexterity (or Two-Weapon Fighting, take your pick) is lost -- that is, the fact that Ambidexterity already negates the -3 penalty for using your off hand to attack, which is one of the benefits of Two-Weapon Fighting (or vice versa). My idea is to give a 1-Character point rebate when purchasing Two-Weapon Fighting if the character already has Ambidexterity at its highest level.

Too crunchy? Too anal?

Well, that's why I started a post here for your feedback!

[Zed-F]

How often do you really make use of ambidexterity anyway? You don't need it to sweep, rapid fire, or MPA for two attacks at no penalty for off-handedness. My copy of FREd says it costs 3 points per level or 9 points to remove the penalty entirely, which is way too much. They may have reduced the cost in 5ER though. I'd say go ahead and give the rebate.

[Black Lotus]

I'm pretty sure it's 1 point for +1, 2 points for +2, and 3 points to reduce off-hand penalties entirely for Ambidexterity.

Yeah, a 1-point rebate sounds good.

Well, Ambidexterity CAN be useful (for say, disarming a trap with one hand while simultaneously picking a lock, which I would allow if it made dramatic sense -- though I'd still apply some sort of penalty to both actions, just not the extra -3 to the off hand). It's good for a number of other things, as well (remember The Princess Bride)?

[ghost-angel]

No, Ambidexterity is 3pts/level.. Full Ambidexterity is 9 points. I don't have Revised so I can't point to that page reference, so here's the FREd reference: pg62.

Two Weapon fighting allows you to ignore Penalties when, AND ONLY WHEN, wielding the two defined weapons at once (hand-to-hand or ranged). If you have only one of those on hand you either use your Good Hand or suffer a penalty for your Off hand. If you good hand is impaired preventing you from Dual Wielding then you incur Off Hand penalties as normal.

Ambidexterity, by contrast, allows you to counteract penalties for your offhand at all times. If your Good Hand is blown off or impaired you can still use a weapon/attack in your Off Hand with no penalty. Though while this eliminates the Off Hand penalties you still incur the two-attack penalty if you do that.

Also, there is the intent behind the two. Two Weapon fighting is primarily aimed at Heroic Campaigns while Ambidexterity tends to have slightly more universal application.

The usefulness of either is entirely in gameplay however, if you never had impaired limbs then likely you'll never incur off hand penalties. If dual wielding weapons doesn't fit genre then you'll likely never see it in that game.

[Lord Mhoram]

No, Ambidexterity is 3pts/level.. Full Ambidexterity is 9 points. I don't have Revised so I can't point to that page reference, so here's the FREd reference: pg62.

Just because I can....
5ER page 87.

[prestidigitator]

If a character buys full Ambidexterity I don't require them to buy Two-Weapon Fighting at all. They can make a straight purchase of the the CSLs with Sweep that form the rest of the Two-Weapon Fighting mechanics. As an exception to the rule that Limitations can only be bought on 5-point CSLs and above, I allow a -1/4 Limitation: "Only When Using Multiple Weapons in the Sweep" (this brings the cost of +2 with Sweep down from 4 to 3 points). Note that if a -1/4 Limitation were taken on the combination of full Ambidexterity and +2 CSLs with Sweep (9+4 = 13 points), it would come to a Real Cost of 10, which is exactly the cost of Two-Weapon Fighting.

[Black Lotus]

If a character buys full Ambidexterity I don't require them to buy Two-Weapon Fighting at all. They can make a straight purchase of the the CSLs with Sweep that form the rest of the Two-Weapon Fighting mechanics. As an exception to the rule that Limitations can only be bought on 5-point CSLs and above, I allow a -1/4 Limitation: "Only When Using Multiple Weapons in the Sweep" (this brings the cost of +2 with Sweep down from 4 to 3 points). Note that if a -1/4 Limitation were taken on the combination of full Ambidexterity and +2 CSLs with Sweep (9+4 = 13 points), it would come to a Real Cost of 10, which is exactly the cost of Two-Weapon Fighting.

Ah, but Ambidexterity applies to all actions performed with the off-hand, not just attacks (which is where that missing -1/4 Limitation comes from, I suppose).

Also, taking CSL doesn't QUITE live up to Two-Weapon Fighting. For one thing, TW Fighting covers either all Ranged or all HTH attacks. That's at least, what, two 5-point CSLs just for the +2 OCV to all ranged or HTH? A 3-point CSL only covers a "tight group" of related attacks (aka Pistols, Karate). That's a bit better than Two Weapon Fighting (which only negates the first -2 OCV modifier on the second attack, while with the CSLs you get (essentially) an extra +2 OCV on your first attack, to boot). Also, CSLs don't cover the "flat -2 to DCV instead of halving DCV" while using Sweep or Rapid Fire provided by TW Fighting.

Not quite the same, as far as I can tell. I guess you CAN build TW Fighting around a pre-existing Ambideterity, but it seems impossible to match its effects (or cost) exactly.

[Greg]

2-weapon fighting is built using ambidexterity so you'd probably need to reverse engineer it a bit to refund some points. On the other hand, 2-weapon fighting is better than straight ambidexterity and sweep PSLs because even if you miss with your main weapon you'd still be able to follow-up with your off-hand one. You're also not at half DCV.

[sbarron]

Well, Ambidexterity CAN be useful (for say, disarming a trap with one hand while simultaneously picking a lock, which I would allow if it made dramatic sense -- though I'd still apply some sort of penalty to both actions, just not the extra -3 to the off hand). It's good for a number of other things, as well (remember The Princess Bride)?

Neither Inigo Montoya nor Westley had ambidexterity. As you will recall, both were better with their dominate hand than they were with their off hand. So unless they purchased levels as (-0) Only when using dominate hand, they were clearly not ambidextrous.

[Vanguard]

FYI, Ambidexterity doesn't allow you to make multiple attacks in the same phase. Just lets you use your off hand at no penalty if/when you do attack.

Two-Weapon Fighting allows you to make, essentially, 2 attacks in one phase.

[Black Lotus]

FYI, Ambidexterity doesn't allow you to make multiple attacks in the same phase. Just lets you use your off hand at no penalty if/when you do attack.

Two-Weapon Fighting allows you to make, essentially, 2 attacks in one phase.

Well, actually, the rules allow for you to use two weapons to attack simultaneously. It falls under the "using multiple Powers to attack" category -- when holding two similar or identical weapons, one in each hand. I forget where that is in FREd, but it is there -- and a lot of the leeway on that is left to the GM's discretion.

[Black Lotus]

Neither Inigo Montoya nor Westley had ambidexterity. As you will recall, both were better with their dominate hand than they were with their off hand. So unless they purchased levels as (-0) Only when using dominate hand, they were clearly not ambidextrous.

I wasn't assuming they had full Ambidexterity; maybe +1 or +2. While they were better with their dominant hands, they were also quite good with their off-hands. I was using it more as an example of how it could be useful than anything else (I might give a small bonus to OCV if a player character suddenly changes hands on his opponent).

[NuSoardGraphite]

This was one of the first questions brought up after the release of the 5th edition.

In general, Two Weapon Fighting is included for those GM's who don't normally use Sweep or Rapid Fire in their games, but don't mind a character with specialized training to have this skill/ability.

For those GM's who do use Sweep and Rapid Fire, characters with Ambidexterity don't really need to purchase Two Weapon Fighting...just 2pt Combat Skill Levels to remove the penalty for multiple attacks...though characters who don't have Ambidexterity could purchase Two Weapon Fighting as normal.

[Onyxclaw]

it all depends on the concept you want for your character honestly.

The only character I have built with two weapon fighting (posted on the boards as Ekatrina) also had rapid attack and plenty of csls. (not to mention power claws, find weakness, and a dex roll activated damage reduction)

Her kilrathis esq design wasn't supposed to be ambidextrous for the most part, but she was supposed to be an efficient fighter.

If you want your character to be both, I don't see a problem with taking both. The overlap really doesn't really shotself much at all. I mean, TWF doesn't let you do anythign but attack and sweep at no penalty for using both hands, and ambidex would give you the option to use either hand at any time, but would not give you much of an edge in battle. if you want to credit back a point, go ahead. But I'm not sure it's neccisary.

[ghost-angel]

it all depends on the concept you want for your character honestly.

This is the ultimate answer here.

I have a character who is ambidextrous, they are a sniper and are able to shoot equally well with either hand. But they never have, and never will, wield two weapons at once. This character has Ambidexterity.

I have a duelist who uses a Rapier and Main Gauche in combat, having specifically trained with both and their balance in combat partially relies on having a weapon in each hand. their just not an effective fight with a rapier in their left hand and nothing else. This character has Two Weapon Fighting.

Conceptually the characters have the right Skill/Talent, mechanics wise there is a difference. But mechanics should not dictate how a character is built any more than it absolutely has to.