Problem with creating a FH spell.

[Mark Taylor]

One of my players has an old GURPS Fantasy character that we're trying build a reasonably close approximation of in HERO System for a Turakian Age game. Problem is, the character has the GURPS spell Control Illusion, which basically allows an illusionist to steal control of another illusionist's currently active illusion spells. Two approaches occured to me. 1) Dispel Images linked to a VPP only to create the same images-based spell, or 2) Mind Control, only to take control of a person's currently active illusions.

Unfortunately, approach 1) would send the character's point cost through the roof, and approach 2) would make it difficult or impossible to take control of illusions where the original caster isn't present.

Can anybody think of another approach which isn't prohibitively expensive?

[ghost-angel]

I don't think Hero has an effective method for taking control of another persons Power... interesting. The Drain: Linked to a large Images Power (or VPP: Only for Images) sounds like the best bet honestly...

[NuSoardGraphite]

Well, in a classic style Fantasy setting, most illusions are going to be based on the 5 natural senses. Thus he would only need the Images power covering Sight, Hearing, Smell, Touch and Taste. Then a limitation stating "only to take control of an existing Image (-2)"

I say its worth -2 because he can't use the power at will...there must be another illusion present to manipulate. -2 on top of the other limitations standard for spell casting (gestures, Incan, Extra time, focus etc) will make the spell quite affordable. The only issue is whether or not it fits in the Active Point scheme of whatever magic system you are using.

If the Mage who created the original illusion is present, they could probably vie for control of the illusion. This is a good use of the Skill vs Skill rules. Have fun!

[Super Squirrel]

Why not use Transfer? I'm assuming you have an active point cap so this is what I'm going with.

Control Illusion: 1d6 Transfer Images to Images, Can Transfer Maximum of 24 Active Points, Autofire (x5, +1 1/2) (60 Active Points), Only for Taking Control of an Illusionary Spell (-1 1/2), Must Have Control of Full Power to Gain Control (-1/2). Total Cost: 20 Points.

The maximum effect of Adjustment powers can be increased by 2 for every 1 Character Point spent. Therefore the above is 15 for 1d6 + 9 points for an extra 18 points of control. Autofire costs an extra +1 for Transfers.

Alternatively you can do:
Control Illusion: 1d6 Transfer Images to Images, Can Transfer Maximum of 28 Active Points, Autofire (x3, +1 1/4) (58 Active Points), Only for Taking Control of an Illusionary Spell (-1 1/2), Must Have Control of Full Power to Gain Control (-1/2). Total Cost: 19 Points.

It will take care of most low power illusions pretty quickly. It would require going above 60 active points to get the sample illusionary spell in 5th Revised.

I just noticed a problem though, Transfer is a No Range. It would require ranged for a +1/2 advantage. Perhaps, the best way to do this is going to be with Cumulative.

Lets see. 2d6 Transfer, Ranged Cumulative(+1/2) (60 Active Points) 20 Total.
12 total points transferrable. No good.

1d6 Transfer Ranged, Cumulative(+1, 48 Points Total), Delayed Rate of Return (1 Minute; +1/2) (45 Active Points) Total Cost: 15
48 points should cover all illusions. Simple ones will be taken in 1 or 2 turns. More powerful ones go down at about 3 or 4 phases. Normally you can't use Cumulative to improve a power but as the SFX is that you are taking control of a limited type of power, I think it is okay.

[Duke Bushido]

Okay, this is _way_ out there, but as no one has suggested it yet, I reckon I'll put it on the table for discussion.

All the above suggestions are good, but I am seeing a possible flaw, depending on how you feel about GM fiat, and that is that as I understand them, all these powers are used to target another character. In these cases, you'd have to use your 'take over your illusions' spell against the original spell caster, who may not be at home that day.

So what I suggest is a way to target the actual power, which has _got_ to be right there; you're looking at it, after all. So I've bandied it around a bit, and well--

well, I haven't gotten anything better. But I have one possible idea, though it requires a limited fiat in itself, and that is the allowance of an optional rule:

Have you considered using the 5E (and I assume 5Er as well) rules for using Naked Advantages as Powers? Perhaps a quick _Independant_ or _Useable by Others_ (or even a combination of the two) set up with Limitation: _Only vs Illusions_ or some similar construct?


I wish I had my stuff unpacked so I could check this; it may well suffer from the same 'you're supposed to target the character with that,' but on the surface, I think you can't really apply Power Advantages to a _player_; seems ideal to me.

Just thinking out loud. Ignore me.....

[Mark Taylor]

Okay, this is _way_ out there, but as no one has suggested it yet, I reckon I'll put it on the table for discussion.

All the above suggestions are good, but I am seeing a possible flaw, depending on how you feel about GM fiat, and that is that as I understand them, all these powers are used to target another character. In these cases, you'd have to use your 'take over your illusions' spell against the original spell caster, who may not be at home that day.

So what I suggest is a way to target the actual power, which has _got_ to be right there; you're looking at it, after all. So I've bandied it around a bit, and well--

well, I haven't gotten anything better. But I have one possible idea, though it requires a limited fiat in itself, and that is the allowance of an optional rule:

Have you considered using the 5E (and I assume 5Er as well) rules for using Naked Advantages as Powers? Perhaps a quick _Independant_ or _Useable by Others_ (or even a combination of the two) set up with Limitation: _Only vs Illusions_ or some similar construct?


I wish I had my stuff unpacked so I could check this; it may well suffer from the same 'you're supposed to target the character with that,' but on the surface, I think you can't really apply Power Advantages to a _player_; seems ideal to me.

Just thinking out loud. Ignore me.....

Actually, this has potential. Obviously it's bending the rules somewhat, but the following should serve. It inflicts Usable by Others as a naked advantage on the target spell by making that advantage Usable as Attack, a different form of the same advantage... which is a bit screwed up, but I'm trying not to think about it too hard so my brain doesn't hurt. Anyway, plenty of spells in the Fantasy HERO Grimoire books bend the rules to as great or greater an extent, so that doesn't bother me too much.

Control Illusion: Usable By Other (+1/4) for up to 40 Active Points of Illusion Spells, Usable As Attack (+1) (20 Active Points); Requires A Sorcery Roll (-1/2), Gestures (-1/4), Incantations (-1/4). Total cost: 10 points.

[NuSoardGraphite]

Nice!

I'm torn between the Usable by Others and the Tranfer versions....

[gojira]

Another idea is to ask: "What should Control Illusion cost?" and just stat out a transform that costs about what you think. If CI should be about 20 points, try to hit that.

Here's one more idea. I don't have 5th, but you could define Illusions as a type of Summon. It'd be like a Desolid bot that does something: makes a noise, shows a picture, etc. They'd be insubstantial (unless maybe the viewer truly believes them?) and not capable of affecting the real world.

Then Control Illusion is just a means of controlling the bot. It's always there if the illusion is there. Mind Control the bot (give like ego and int porportional to the casters skill, power, and illusion role), and you're done. Transform would work to: Transform to a bot under my control.


P.S. Hmm, how to get a desolid bot to affect someone... +1 for desolid to affect the real world, right? Then maybe -1/2 Only if the viewer believes (power looses about half it's effectiveness). Something like this...

[Basil]

Okay, this is _way_ out there, but as no one has suggested it yet, I reckon I'll put it on the table for discussion.

All the above suggestions are good, but I am seeing a possible flaw, depending on how you feel about GM fiat, and that is that as I understand them, all these powers are used to target another character. In these cases, you'd have to use your 'take over your illusions' spell against the original spell caster, who may not be at home that day.

I think you're right for the "Mind Control, only to control the Images" idea, but not for the "Transfer, Images to Images" idea. Transfer can be said to attack the Power (or Characteristic), not the "owner" per se. Thus, I'd say it can be used on an Image even if the caster is not present (e.g., if it's Independent or Triggered). So Super Squirrel's ideas, and similar ones, should be fine.

As always, YMMV.

[Duke Bushido]

Transfer can be said to attack the Power (or Characteristic), not the "owner" per se. Thus, I'd say it can be used on an Image even if the caster is not present (e.g., if it's Independent or Triggered).

Very true, but the more I thought about that one, the more I felt that it was a hand-wave of sorts. Granted, there is nothing wrong with that at all; let me share the stream of thought that got me there (hopefully abbreviated):

Picture a combat between two Blasters, one with Transfer. When Steal-your-power Man uses his transfer, where is he 'aiming' his power? Presumably at his opponent.

If The Leech wants to transfer his opponent's EB, he does not need to wait until that EB has been fired to do so. In fact, he very specifically can't transfer an EB that is currently striking him ("in use," as it were). To do that, he would need an entirely separate power, and in particular, Absorption.

Using that as a guideline, I considered that the already-present illusion was simillarly "in use" and thus Transfer could not be used directly against it. However, I see no reason that Absorption can't be used against that illusion; Absorption, as stated, is specifically for powers that are both "in use" and "hitting you" (Assuming that being perceived is the Illusion's equivalent to a successful ''hit,'' of course).

But even then, Absorption could well be interpretted to mean that if successful in this case, an 'absorbed' Illusion would fall, and have to be re-cast by the player (though obviously this time it would be an image of the player's design).

The major stumbling blocks I found there were
1) the fact that the Illusion would fall, even if momentarily, would ruin the intended effect of the Control Illusion spell

2) there is a points limit on Absorption, and raising it high enough to sieze control of any forseeable Illusion would become extremely expensive, particular at a Heroic level

3) Not every GM will allow an Absoption to feed a power or ability that the character does not already have. Thus, the character may also have to buy the Illusion spell himself.

4) If (3) is the case, many FH campaigns require numerous Limitations on spells, such as gestures, material components, and takes extra time. In such a campaign, and adjustment power-based spell would be impractical for this use, as the current illusion drops, then the caster has to cast a second spell, etc. The desired effect is completely lost in such a case.

5) Using a Transfer power, there is the possibility that even if the character's Absorbtion (or Transfer) limit is high enough, his dice might not be high enough to allow him to cast the same illusion.

And I fully understand that all of these could be solved with one or more fiats, and (though I think I am well in the minority with this opinion) I really don't have a problem with that: Story before Dice, after all. I want to stress that I was sincerly not trying to call any of the other constructs invalid, as they were all very practical, and depending on your interpretation of how the mechanic itself works, completely book-legal.

But after reviewing the above points, it occured to me that what with the possible ways to interpret the mechanics themselves-- ie, targeting the opponent and not the results of his work; possible multiple-phase constructs, etc-- I felt that the Naked Advantages simply offered a more consistent result and would more accurately reproduce the desired effect. That's all.

There is no doubt that a T-form would do everything listed above. (but insufficient dice for immediate effects still leaves a clearly detectable indicator that a T-form is occuring, if I remember the book correctly) Frankly, there is no dbout that a T-form could be constructed to replace any power in the book, or reproduce any desired effect. And it is for that reason alone that I was looking for something _other_ than T-form to offer.

As always, YMMV.

And with this, I will never disagree! Your House; you're rules.


Duke

[Mark Taylor]

I think I'm going to plump for the Usable by Other version I posted, though slightly modified to make the RSR limitation subject to Skill vs. Skill contests so that the illusion can resist using the original caster's Skill level. That more closely reflects the way the original GURPS spell worked anyway, and without it the spell seems a little too powerful, allowing the caster to steal any illusion less than or equal to the active point limit with pretty much no chance of failure.

Thanks for all the suggestions everybody posted! As always this board has proven itself one of the most useful resources at the disposal of any HERO System GM or player.

[Duke Bushido]

Mark---

can we talk you into posting your final construct?

Even once you've got something you're happy with, I think some of us are still having fun debating it

Duke

[Mark Taylor]

Mark---

can we talk you into posting your final construct?

Sure. I changed the name because I prefer more colourful spell names and the original bland spell names from GURPS Magic aren't exactly an integral part of the character. At the moment it looks like this:

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Stolen Phantasm: Usable By Other (+1/4) for up to 60 Active Points of Illusion Spells, Usable As Attack (+1), Continuous (+1), Costs END Only To Activate (+1/4) (49 Active Points); Requires A Sorcery Roll (RSR Skill is subject to Skill vs. Skill contests; -3/4), Gestures (-1/4), Incantations (-1/4). Total cost: 22 points.

------

The Continuous advantage is required because technically speaking Naked Advantages are Instant by default even when applied to Constant Powers.

The Costs END Only to Activate Advantage naturally applies only to the Naked advantage itself - The caster must still pay END to maintain the stolen illusion spell. If he stops, the Stolen Phantasm spell also ends, of course.

As it's a Turakian Age campaign, of course the character only pays a third of the cost (7 points) for it.

60 Active Points worth might seem like a lot but this is for a Turakian Age campaign so the spell needs to be able to handle some of the more powerful illusions from the Fantasy HERO Grimoire (and it certainly can't handle them all).

I know this construction bends the rules but I don't think it's unbalanced (mostly thanks to the Skill vs. Skill requirement) so it doesn't bother me very much. I'm aware that applying the same kind of construct to various other types of powers besides illusions could potentially be really unbalanced, so I don't intend to go there.

[ghost-angel]

You went with what was going to be my vote... The Naked Advantage is a nice neat construct .. I can't believe I didn't think of it, ok yes I can..

Naked Advantage is probably the single best addition to 5thEd. that I can possibly think of, so many options have opened up with that construct.

[Duke Bushido]

Wow!

I like the addition of Skill vs Skill! It implies actually having to forcibly override what's been created and bend it to your will. Lends a nice "I'm trying! This magic is so much stronger than I thought. This was a powerful wizard indeed!" kind of angle. Very nice! Wish I'd thought of that....

I'm not too familiar with HERO's skill v skill, as we've never had a character have a power that utilized it (used it a few times grappling, etc, but 'instant' type stuff is a -no brainer: you win or you don't.) For a continuous power like you've constructed, is the Skill v Skill roll only at the casting of the spell, or must it be re-rolled every phase the power is in use?