Champions Universe Plot Hole Plugging

[Duke Bushido]

I don't remember gothic.

I remember "David Sleaze, the Punk Magician," but I don't remember gothic. Or his actual name, at this point. Funny. For all the jokes that man ever told, I think that is both the only one that everyone remembers, and the one that _everyone_ has heard....

But getting back on track---
I don't like the Magic thing either. So I ignore it, with extreme prejiduce.

And oddly enough, once I did that, I found that most of the additional books were incompatible, story-line wise, so I can ignore those, too. .

Don't get me wrong, I would like to get them eventually, if only for the additional options, examples, etc, but the pressure is off to get them before I can afford them.

[Metaphysician]

. . .dare I ask what the point value for the game was where a PC felt he could go and buy a 135 active point attack??

[Zed-F]

Doesn't really matter. Some games allow that sort of thing.

I have a better reason for disallowing the 3d6 RKA NND Does Body. Is it in genre? Is that the sort of thing a hero would go around using in your game? If not, then the character (or at least the power) gets the gong. If it is in genre and you're playing some rusty Iron age game where that sort of thing is fine, then the players will be fine when the GM pulls the same sorts of attacks on them, won't they?

I don't buy that line about using magic to justify GM plot contrivances, though. Either magic works in the world, in which case obviously it should have some effect -- you as GM get to decide exactly what, beforehand -- or else it's so far in the background that it effectively doesn't matter for the game you're running, in which case it never comes up. No GM worth his salt would just use 'it's magic!' as an explanation for an in-game event without some rules for how this particular form of magic works in mind. Even if you get caught out, and don't know the answer, far better to say, "I don't know, and neither does your character. If you're curious, I can figure out an answer for next session, and then your character can try to research it."

As far as 'everything comes from magic' in the CU goes, I figure that's just background fluff. Unless your campaign is about the rise and fall of magic (e.g. some kind of temporal or interdimensional campaign in the CU universe,) for all practical purposes, you can ignore it, and it's business as usual. I doubt that in and of itself would make the supplements useless to me, were I to buy some. Most of my campaigns don't explicitly take place in the CU universe anyway.

[Balabanto]

I chose that power because it was excessive and ridiculous. Because Magic does not have rules as you and I understand them, any concept, no matter how ridiculous, broken, or stupid, is justifiable.

GOOD roleplayers have high quality backgrounds that allow them to justify virtually anything, no matter how ridiculous, broken, or stupid.

When you combine these two things, you have a recipe for disaster. It doesn't actually matter what the power IS. It only matters that you can justify it.

One of the reasons my game still has the lower 4th ED power levels (See the Dex Inflation thread, even though it's turning bloody) is because when the characters switched over, they were required to buy a TON of skills to justify things that they could ALREADY do under 4th, but required new justification in 5th.

One of the joys of the new edition, for me, was that armored characters and magicians actually had the points to justify the existence of their armor, spellbooks, and weird devices.

And then the character examples in Champions Universe didn't use those points for it. In my game, if you want to be able to do things with your gadget pool, you have to have a bunch of sciences. If you want to cast spells, you need a bunch of different magic skills.

That's the real plot hole in the Champions Universe. The characters are really powerful, but can't think their way out of a paper bag because they lack the requisite skills to power their conceptions.

[Zed-F]

In my game, if you want to be able to do things with your gadget pool, you have to have a bunch of sciences. If you want to cast spells, you need a bunch of different magic skills.

I agree with you on that score, especially for VPPs. As far as whether the CU characters do the same, I don't know, nor do I really care. If I wanted to use some character from the CU, well I'm the GM. I can afford to spot them 20 points or so to fill in the SS, KS, or what have you I think they should have. What's more important is whether my PCs have the right skills to justify their characters' powers.

[OddHat]

I chose that power because it was excessive and ridiculous. Because Magic does not have rules as you and I understand them, any concept, no matter how ridiculous, broken, or stupid, is justifiable.

Magic has whatever rules and limitis the storyteller/GM/designer wants it to have. You always have the right to tell a player "No, magic can't do that in this setting."

[Kristopher]

I think you're over-stating the magic aspect of the CU. Each power is not magical. Each power just function because magic has altered the laws of physics to the point where the impossible becomes possible.

Dr. Destroyer does not shoot magic blasts. Dr. Destroyer uses technology that is possible because magic has altered the laws of physics allowing him to make such technology. Those are two different things.

Not really.

If it's magic that allows a power to work, then it's magic.

[Metaphysician]

Not really. Regardless of whether your stove runs on gas, electricity, or wood, you are still cooking with the same thing: heat.

[Balabanto]

The problem is that Magic can do anything. I repeat this now. Once you accept the existence of Magic, which is essentially...the force that allows you to defy the normal laws of reality, then anything is possible within the framework that allows the existence of that force.

Unless you go out of your way (And this is usually excessive) to define magic as a more limited series/set of forces, then the fundamental flaw in magic is this:

Magic can do ANYTHING. It's conceptually based rather than grounded in logic.

And this is the problem with the Champions Universe:

Gothic Punk Magician Speaks: Oi don't 'ave to come up with an eye-dea that woaks for you! Oi only 'ave to come up with an eye-dea that woaks for me! As long as oi cross my ts and dot my is, it doesn't matter! Because the theme says "It's maaa-gic! F**k Yuuuuuuu!"

Want to play "Slice holes in dimensions man?" Of course you can! It's maaa-gic! F**k yuuuuuuuuu! Want to play "El Constipador?" Of course you can! It's maaa-gic! F**k Yuuuuuu!"

I can do anything! Because it's Maaaa-gic! It doesn't 'ave RULES!

[Mutant for Hire]

My fundamental complaint about the CU is the fact that it tries to be all things to all people, at different points in the timeline. The fact is that during the late twentieth century and early twenty first, Earth was having all sorts of alien contact and alien technology was ending up on Earth, much of which had been built by aliens before the great "whoops" that unleashed magic in the CU. Technology which should have continued to work just fine, along with alien powers after the big crunch. And for that matter, despite magic fading, why would all of those alien races suddenly lose interest in Earth?


In my opinion, the CU timeline is badly designed. It is a deliberate attempt to splice two different genres together into a single timeline. It gets points for originality, but it loses points for internal consistancy. What point is there in having the universe of Alien Wars and Terran Empire in the CU universe if they have to jump through so many hoops and they deliberately downplay superheroic stuff in the SF universe anyway? Yes, they can borrow alien races, but the thing is that the typical alien race in a superheroic universe is designed differently than one in a SF universe anyway.


In my opinion, it would have been better to create two distinct timelines, one of which was a superheroic universe and the other one was a hard SF universe. And if we ever reboot the CU to a sixth edition, I hope that DOJ goes and does that. You have a simple and straightforward SF universe in one timeline, with psionic powers added for flavor. Modern times with hidden psychics with unreliable powers to cyberpunk where the psionics are out of the closet through Alien Wars to the Terran Empire.


In the other timeline, you have the wild and wacky Champions Universe, which doesn't suddenly lose all of its costumed heroes, or at the very least, it doesn't suddenly forget that superpowers ever existed or all the other little consequences of Earth having all this commerce with other worlds and other dimensions. Admittedly, there is a thousand year gap to fill, but it's pretty easy to come up with something that's interesting for campaign settings and thanks to time travel, can have impacts on the modern CU.

[Vanguard00]

Magic can do ANYTHING. It's conceptually based rather than grounded in logic.

I disagree here (and agree with others who have said essentially the same thing). Magic doesn't necessarily mean you can do anything. It simply provides for possibilities not normally governed by existing physics.

To turn-of-the-millennium people, picking up a small device and talking to someone on the other side of the world is magic. Flipping a little switch and having music, or moving pictures, suddenly emit is magic. Heck, using certain herbs to cure whatailsya was magic at some point.

In my mind (in relation to the game), "magic" is simply an as-yet-undefined source of energy with mutable laws of governing science. It is the as-yet-unknown and as-yet-undefined something that permeates the known universe, much like we can't explain the universe expanding (into what?) or how life really started, or why David Hasselhoff had any sort of musical career at all.

Unexplained and/or unknown does not mean impossible.

[WhammeWhamme]

Not really.

If it's magic that allows a power to work, then it's magic.

And if it was invented using scientific techniques, it's science.

Guess it's both.

[Kristopher]

Exactly. The source is nothing but a special effect that has no bearing on the game. A dispel magic will not turn off your lasers. The magic is just a concept to explain why superpowers can occur in the CU and not our real universe. It has zero effect on game play [unless your game involves the destruction of the magic source]. The magic concept is no different then San Angelo's singularities causing superpowers, or my Miami game using radioactive dust from from Tunguska and Halley's comet to cause mutations.

Yeah. Good thing the official CU products don't include the loss of magic, and thus all superpowers.

Ooops.


The "everything is magic" bit was pathetic when Mage did it, and it's pathetic in the CU.

[Kristopher]

You can run an TE or AW game and never need to know it connected to the CU in anyway; it effects nothing within the genre itself.

And yet it's so important to have them connected?

Feh.

[Mutant for Hire]

My understanding is that the entire universe lost the magic flux at the same time. All alien superhumans and "magic flux" based science essentially stop working. Only the mighty Malvans with their millennia-old technology went through the sealing of magic unscathed [possibly the Mandaarians too]. So there was probably a period in time when all the aliens were trying to figure out what happen. The Xenovores were one of the first to recover, which is probably why they managed to walk through everyone so easily.

The problem is that the return of magic was less than a century ago, and you have interstellar empires that have been using the same technology for centuries. That's what I'm talking about here.

I like the single timeline and don't really see what the problem is. Using the same races throughout history just means more consistency in the game. Ultimately the timelines are not dependant upon each other. You can run an TE or AW game and never need to know it connected to the CU in anyway; it effects nothing within the genre itself.

The question is, if no one knows they're connected why have them connected at all? What possible benefit is there to having AW and TE in the same timeline as the CU? If it's having some alien races around, they can just be copied over across sourcebooks.