d20 Monster Conversion: Babau Demon into HERO

[Thia Halmades]

Good morning!

I have part-two of a one-shot coming up (one-shot in this case being a closed campaign, as opposed to my normal epic length material) and I have to finish converting the Babau from d20 into HERO terms. Well, part of that was really easy; stats didn't change, HP went into BODY (as Killer Shrike suggests) and the bulk of it was pretty straight forward. I'm looking for help with some specifics.

The creature has some nasty innate abilities, including a Dispel, a TP, and what have you. In d20 terms, it has all of these powers as part of being a Demon, so I grouped some of them into its 'Demonic Talents' as a Multipower. Because it's a 7th level caster, I know using Killer Shrike's recommendation and my own math that drew me to the same conclusion, the Multipower is worth about 60 points (which is significant). And, since it can use any of the abilities within the Multipower at will, there's no need for Charges, and I may even slap "Cost 0 END" on it, as it has no 'combat' manuevers.

So that's a 60 point Dispel Magic (ow), a Teleport to Darn Near Anywhere (used generally for spying and bailing out of combat situations, it reasonably can't Teleport & Dispel in the same phase, that made sense to me), Darkness in a 4" radius, and it also has a Damage Shield, and can see the Invisible. Yeah, it's absurd. But hey! I need to build it. Almost exactly. So here's the bits where I'm stuck:

- Immune to Poison (LS, easy) and Electricity (I'm going to buy this as an rED vs. Electricity only and apply the FH Absolute Effect rule).

- Resistance to Damage Acid/Cold/Fire 10; in d20 terms, this is an Armor. What's the most efficient way to add specific elemental resistances (not the Damage Reduction percentage, but literally, armor against that attack type) in HERO terms. I was just going to buy Armor and give it a -1 Limitation, "Only against specified energy attacks" and call it good. But there has to be a more mechanically preferred way of doing it.

- See Invisible. Obviously this is Enhanced Senses, and I'm assuming its worth 15 pts (Sight, Important to Combat). That seems really cheap, but if anyone knows better, please let me know. I think it was late when I tried to build this, and I was going nuts.

- Vulnerability, Cold Iron. That's easy. It also gets past its natural Damage Reduction (Armor, in this case). This is another math question; in d20 terms, the sumbish shrugs off any melee weapon (rPD) dealing 10 or less points of damage. Your average tank class is swinging 2d6, plus STR or magic bonuses (in HERO, probably around 2+1/2d6) which is an average of 9 points of BODY. Should that number then stand, representing its ability to shrug off any normal persons attack form?

This ties into the question directly preceeding it; it has a LOT of basic variations on Armor defenses, and the numbers (oddly enough) seem to carry correctly from system to system without too much effort, but how do I make sure I'm expressing it correctly in mechanics?

- Damage Shield I should be able to work out on my own, but suggestions are welcome. It deals 1d6+1 directly to weapons (or people who touch it), and it specifically ignores the weapons DEF.

- If you look on the skill list for the creature, you'll see a whole bunch of plus yadda yadda (about a +15 on average) and that's on a d20 roll, which means that without being under significant duress, it's an automatic success, and on average, the creature will succeed admirably (every +5 is impressive in and of itself). d20 uses a "Difficulty Class" system, or "DC" (which means something totally different in HERO terms). So I'm looking for some skill advice here:

* 1st, how do you (as players/DMs) adequately portray skills? In d20, the roll is always "DM sets a difficulty, player rolls d20 and adds modifiers to meet or exceed difficulty." In HERO, you already know what you need to roll - the GM simply assigns modifiers based on circumstance then, yeah? Do I have that right?

* 2nd, if that's true, how do you properly 'challenge' a PC? Only via conditional modifiers? For example, let's say we're dealing with something basic. A computers check. It must be harder to crack into the IRS Dbase than it is to crack past a small sized corporate Firewall using out-of-the-box hardware. How do you represent that shift? By assigning a penalty? How big? If my player has a 14 INT (12-) and buys a level in Computer Programming (13-) and then busy a couple more for good measure (15-) he's got a great chance at any basic task. How do you modify those challenges within the math of HERO without making things impossible? Do you:

+ Set a threshold of success (must succeed by X or more?)
+ Preset the diff (must roll under X, and then succeed by Y or more from there)
+ Assign a flat penalty (-X to all rolls).

Multiattack I'm going to set up as a TWF variant using Sweep. Do I need to buy Sweep? I'm assuming it isn't a standard combat manuever judging from the TWF thread I saw earlier, but again, Killer Shrike went right over my head, so I'll reread the rules.

Cleave I have the rules for in Fantasy HERO.

How would y'all handle Power Attack? Susano has a method, but I'm curious what other folk think.

It's DEX is garbage, which means that it's ability to smack people (+7 to hit in d20, which is excellent - it means you're likely to hit a normally equipped opponent) and it's good at avoiding blows (armor = harder to hit) but I can see in HERO I don't need to worry so much about people not hitting it - I need to worry about them hurting it. Would you simply improve its combat abilities via CSLs? What would be considered 'dangerous?' OCV 5 (natural weapons)? OCV 7?

Lastly, it has Sneak Attack but that's a normal Deadly Blow in FH, that was the easy part. I've gotten through vast amounts of this believe it or not, I'm just putting everything up here to get feedback and suggestions.

Thanks!

[John Desmarais]

* 1st, how do you (as players/DMs) adequately portray skills? In d20, the roll is always "DM sets a difficulty, player rolls d20 and adds modifiers to meet or exceed difficulty." In HERO, you already know what you need to roll - the GM simply assigns modifiers based on circumstance then, yeah? Do I have that right?

Correct. There is a handy little chart of SKill Modifiers on page 45 (5th Edition Revised)

* 2nd, if that's true, how do you properly 'challenge' a PC? Only via conditional modifiers? For example, let's say we're dealing with something basic. A computers check. It must be harder to crack into the IRS Dbase than it is to crack past a small sized corporate Firewall using out-of-the-box hardware. How do you represent that shift? By assigning a penalty? How big? If my player has a 14 INT (12-) and buys a level in Computer Programming (13-) and then busy a couple more for good measure (15-) he's got a great chance at any basic task. How do you modify those challenges within the math of HERO without making things impossible? Do you:

+ Set a threshold of success (must succeed by X or more?)
+ Preset the diff (must roll under X, and then succeed by Y or more from there)
+ Assign a flat penalty (-X to all rolls).

Assign a penalty based on how difficult you think the task is (-3 to -5 is typical for extremely difficult tasks). See chart on page 45 (5th Edition Revised) .

Multiattack I'm going to set up as a TWF variant using Sweep. Do I need to buy Sweep? I'm assuming it isn't a standard combat manuever judging from the TWF thread I saw earlier, but again, Killer Shrike went right over my head, so I'll reread the rules.

Sweep is an optional combat manuever - you don't spend points on it, the GM merely decides at the start of the campaign whether or not the rule will be used in the game. (As optional rules go it pretty commonm - I don't think I've ever seen a GM not allow it in a game).

How would y'all handle Power Attack? Susano has a method, but I'm curious what other folk think.

As a concept this is already part of the system. Combat SKill levels can already be used to improve damage instead of CV: 2 levels gives you +1 Damage Class.

It's DEX is garbage, which means that it's ability to smack people (+7 to hit in d20, which is excellent - it means you're likely to hit a normally equipped opponent) and it's good at avoiding blows (armor = harder to hit) but I can see in HERO I don't need to worry so much about people not hitting it - I need to worry about them hurting it. Would you simply improve its combat abilities via CSLs? What would be considered 'dangerous?' OCV 5 (natural weapons)? OCV 7?

What constitutes a good OCV is very campaign dependent. What's the average OCV of the players characters?

[Thia Halmades]

Probably in the 5-7 range, on average.

[Killer Shrike]

Was there something wrong with the babua package deal I did earlier?

http://www.killershrike.com/FantasyH...misc/babau.htm


As far as Sweep, it is an Optional Manuever but it is almost always allowed. Personally, I use all the Optional Manuevers in the main rule book.

[Thia Halmades]

Nope! But I wanted to get there myself. That you built the guide is fantasic, but I get satisfaction out of learning by doing, hence, the post. If I just let you do all the work for me, it defeats part of the purpose.

[John Desmarais]

Probably in the 5-7 range, on average.

2 to 3 more than average is dangerous.
4 to 6 more than average is freightening.
7 to 10 more than average gets you a bad reputation

[Killer Shrike]

I think I see what you are confused about regarding TWF now.

On my version of the Babau, I gave them TWF and Rapid Attack. What this means is that the Demon can 1/2 Phase move and then take two attacks at full OCV -- this can be the Claw + Fang pattern of the source material, or some other combination. Assuming Sweep is allowed (it is in my games), the Babau suffers a -2 DCV for this ability.

The Babau can also take MORE than two attacks using the normal rules for Sweep, but takes a cumulative -2 OCV for each extra attack, and this penalty is applied to ALL of the attacks. As soon as one misses, the remaining all miss too.



The way Sweep works is you declare the total number of EXTRA attacks you are taking. Multiply that number by 2 and the result is the penalty that is applied to ALL of the attacks. A miss spoils all remaining attacks. All TWF does is a) offset the first attack's penalty only if that attack is made with a second hand, and b) in campaigns where Sweep is allowed by default, the DCV penalty for Sweep is sharply reduced when using TWF.

[Thia Halmades]

HEY! You built an SR mechanic! BRILLIANT! Thanks, I was looking for that!

[Erkenfresh]

Detect Invisibility: Enhanced Senses (Infrared perception, can see heat patterns), 5 points -or- +5 PER with Sight Group (10 Active Points); Only to see invisibility fringe (-2)

Resistance to Damage Acid/Cold/Fire 10: just buy armor with the limitation "only against acid/cold/fire"

Vulnerability, Cold Iron: Just buy the vulnerability disadvantage. He'll take 1.5x or 2x damage from cold iron attacks. You can also add the limitation to his Damage Resistance power of "Not against cold iron (-0 or -1/4)"

Damage Shield: I'm assuming the damage shield never turns off, Energy Blast 2d6, Inherent (+1/4), Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2), Persistent (+1/2), Damage Shield (Offensive; +3/4), Continuous (+1), No Normal Defense ([Standard]; Cold iron shielding; +1) (50 Active Points)

Power Attack: As previously stated, CSLs can be moved from OCV to damage so everyone with CSLs gets Power Attack for free.

[MorpheousXO]

Hey, KillerShrike, I've been looking around your site, and while I swear I've found it before, I can't find any of your monster conversions (other than the one you just posted, and I can't find even that one without the link). I was wondering if you could point me to their location, say thankya.

[Killer Shrike]

Hey, KillerShrike, I've been looking around your site, and while I swear I've found it before, I can't find any of your monster conversions (other than the one you just posted, and I can't find even that one without the link). I was wondering if you could point me to their location, say thankya.

Thats because I took them all down a few years ago for a variety of reasons:

a) they were in 4e HEROese

b) they were designed for my OLD AD&D 2e -> HERO 4e conversion

c) I changed the way Race Packages were done to comply w/ 5e standards and it would have taken a good deal of revision to correct them.

d) I had planned to go to a pure Race Package deal template (like the Babau posted above), and then rebuild individual "monsters" by combining their Race Packages with various other Packages in basically the same fashion that PC's can be built from my modular Race and Profession Packages

I never got around to d) for a variety of reasons:

a) got distracted by other things like making Magic Systems, converting Spells, world building, playing in other genres, getting married, buying an expensive condo, getting off my *** and paying attention to my career again to pay for aforementioned wife, condo, and incoming baby.

b) characters whose shtick revolves around what they are rather than what they do are easy to make, so I usually just whip them up on the fly when I need them. They usually take about an hour to template out and then making individuals by mixing and matching packages and customizing to suit is a breeze.

c) retreading old ground is boring, and I alwasy have a hard time making myself go back and redo crap I did a long time ago.

d) there are a lot of sources of critters and what not already available and they are a fairly pedestrian subject, so its not really a gap that needs filing.


I still have the old files around somewhere however. In fact, I still have a backup of the entire old site on a disk somewhere around here.

[Thia Halmades]

Susano built a Power Attack that acts in part like a Haymaker. I have to re-read it. When I think Power Attack, I think Haymaker, I think it's closer. Although you have a point, I recall reading somewhere that anyone can burn two levels of OCV for DC.

[Killer Shrike]

It doesnt need to be "converted" -- Power Attack is Haymaker, or if youre good at it Offensive Strike. It's built in.

[Thia Halmades]

But if you're doing a raw conversion, than you either have to purchase 'Haymaker' as a skill and apply it, or eschew the tree completely (which I've already done anyway). Although if you haven't seen Susano's build for it, it's really pretty cool.

[Killer Shrike]

But if you're doing a raw conversion, than you either have to purchase 'Haymaker' as a skill and apply it, or eschew the tree completely (which I've already done anyway). Although if you haven't seen Susano's build for it, it's really pretty cool.

If you really want to pay points for it, you can always buy Offensive Strike which is a better version of Haymaker.

Also, in the HERO System you can convert CSL's for damage, which is a very good parrallel to Power Attack where you trade to Hit for damage. So ANY character with a couple CSL's of the right type can convert them for more damage, thus accomplishing a "Power Attack".


Which raises the question, why purchase it as a seperate ability at all? Not every niggling game mechanic needs to be converted as is -- it often just doesnt make any sense. If you go from one game to another there will be things that are meaningful in one system but irrelevant in another. Slavish adherence to a literal 1:1 mapping is unnecessary.


Pull back a little and get some perspective on the bigger picture. Just look at what the ability does IN CONTEXT in the source game and find something that is pretty close to that in the other game.

In this case Power Attack allows characters to do more damage while suffering a loss of accuracy. Does HERO have a mechanic similar to that? Yes, several. Some cost points, some don't, some have other utility, some don't. At the individual character level, take which ever one makes the most sense for that character, and remember that in the bigger picture it doesnt actually matter which the character takes. All that matters is that the individual character is interesting and fully realized.