Knockback

[Sean Waters]

One quite major factor as power levels increase is knockback. The way it is set up is that you get KB'd by normal attacks of 8 dice or more, on an average hit. Then it is half phase to get up and half phase to move back to where you were, and you're out of actions (you could use that half move for a movethrough and attack, but you take penalties).

As DCs go up, KB becomes almost inevitable unless every character buys KBR. I am not keen on the system effectively forcing characters to buy certain things to remain effective.

Seems a bit of a drag, and likely to be a major factor in slowing combat. Do you find that?

So what can we do?

An idea: KB doesn't always happen - you can decide if you want KB to happen, but if you do you reduce the stun damage by the result of the to hit roll - you were aiming for the centre of mass, not a vital area - so you trade damage for KB - whichever is most important to you at that time. Alternatively you could reduce damage by the value of the (normally rolled) KB dice if you want to cause KB.

If you have double KB you ALWAYS calculate KB, or double KB if you reduce stun as above...

Thoughts?

[ghost-angel]

I like Mitchell's take on it - seems faster and easier to utilize. Not that your system was bad Sean, but I see it as not really helping combat speed up if people wish to use KB most, or even half, the time.

The way I see Mitchell's system working is that a Stunned Character no longer has the senses to remained stable and thus is knocked around - and character who takes the damage but is not Stunned retains enough balance to not get bounced around the field like a tennis ball.

I've never been a big fan of KB (I do like Knockdown) but have simply accepted it as a genre convention. So I really do like Mitchell's idea a lot.

[NuSoardGraphite]

I only use KB on attacks that seem as if they should do KB.

Attacks that are pushed (including STR) or Haymakered. Large attacks that cover most of the targets body (AE-1 hex attacks) Attacks where the SFX is large amounts of kinetic energy are all candidates for Knockback.

A target who has been stunned is another very good idea. Thanks Mitchell.

[Dust Raven]

I'm probably being a nuisance here, but I like KB the way it is. Currently, it acts as a balance for STR (or Martial Arts) versus equivantlly priced ranged attacks like EB, making it more difficult for a HTH attacker to stay in HTH range.

[Rick]

I actually like KB as it stands. By the way Martial Arts tends not to do so much KB, the exta d6 tends to kill most of that. I like that in brick fights people go flying around, I like it even more when someone, NPC or PC goes flying when a troll whacks them with that log.

[Lord Liaden]

I'm inclined to agree with Dust Raven. The ability to Resist Knockback with Strength or Flight, and the option of Aborting to Resist Knockback, significantly reduce the incidence of KB IME. It's not a perfect defense since it has drawbacks, but I don't think it should be; OTOH it's a viable tactical option in certain situations, and I like players to think tactically. As per the rules I also allow Aborting to other defensive actions simultaneously with Resisting KB, including Block and similar Combat Maneuvers.

Several times in my campaigns I've seen opposing bricks in my campaigns "dig in" to Resist Knockback and slug it out toe-to-toe, a common scenario in comics.

[Agent X]

If you're worried about knockback happening too often in high damage class games, just roll more dice to subtract from knockback for higher point characters or all characters.

[Christougher]

MitchellS has a wonderfully simple idea, though Double Knockback suffers for it.

I was about to start tinkering with KB myself. One possible idea was give everyone base KB Resist equal to Body, and mostly eliminate the 2d6 Roll. The modifiers for KB for Martial/Killing attacks and flying/swimming targets would apply though. Haven't really worked that out though.

[CrosshairCollie]

If you're worried about knockback happening too often in high damage class games, just roll more dice to subtract from knockback for higher point characters or all characters.

I'd recommend this, myself; increasing the base number of dice to 3d6 or 4d6 for Knockback. It reduces Knockback, but a good lucky shot can still generate some distance; it also still takes into account things like Shrinking, or un-stunnable targets you may want to knock back (like objects or automata).

[Supreme Serpent]

If you're worried about knockback happening too often in high damage class games, just roll more dice to subtract from knockback for higher point characters or all characters.

I'd say go with this if you want it around, just less of it - don't want trying to handle a combat where everyone's getting knocked back a foot or more of table space every phase.

I'd say that the original Champions KB was set up when the average attack would be around 10-12D6, so 2d6 base allowed for some or no KB depending on rolls. To keep the same equivalence at higher DC levels, I'd say add a d6 for every 4-6DCs of the game average. So, if average attacks are 18d6 for the campaign, use 3d6 base. If 22d6, use 4d6 and so on.

[zornwil]

If you're worried about knockback happening too often in high damage class games, just roll more dice to subtract from knockback for higher point characters or all characters.

Yeah, that's what I started doing. I did as follows:

"Knockback is less effective. Any character with "significant resistant defenses" (GM's discretion) automatically adds +1d6 to the roll, period. Most serious super-characters have this - .... In general, that means you're rolling against 3d6. If the BOD damage does not exceed resistant defenses, add 1d6 to the knockback roll as well. So much of the time it's against 4d6, as BOD rarely gets through. However, the 1.5x and double knockback options are available at 1/4 less than book price. Also, a character may voluntary use the old knockback rules when they are targeted as a method of creating distance albeit with damage. This is not the same as rolling with the punch, which you may abort to as preferred."

Just allowing the 1d6 more for "significant resistant defenses" opens up that for lesser characters they still tend to go flying, and the caveat re inflicting BOD also makes it rarer, but still possible. So big KB really only occurs for squishy hits on weaker beings, otherwise it tends to not be such a big thing unless the hit is in fact pretty big.

[Hyper-Man]

I'm in the "leave it like it is camp" on this one.

Do you build Superman with Knockback Resistance? What's his mass? Maybe x2 normal. So maybe -1". It's not enough to explain him resisting much higher impacts. The key point is that he often, not always, makes an effort. Unless he has previously been damaged by a particular attack he doesn't care about taking a 1/2 DVC penalty for using his Flight or STR to resist knockback. IMHO it's a partner rule to pulling a punch. It's an easy way for supers to show they are super vs. normals and to also show when a normal looking opponent is also a super. "Who is that guy"? "I don't know but he must be pretty strong to have hit Superman so hard that he's flying through that building...".

How often do ANY characters in your games use this existing mechanic

[Super Squirrel]

You can also simply things by letting a character make a BODY roll. Every point the roll is made bad adds a d6 to stop knockback.

Of course, if you don't like the idea of people flying all over the place from attacks, you could simply change the rules from Knockdown to Knockback. It is in the book after all.

[Hugh Neilson]

How often do ANY characters in your games use this existing mechanic

Well,y character many years ago had Growth and Absorbtion to Growth. One villain of annoyance was the Kangaroo, who continually did Move Throughs (and had enough KB that it was working. Until I Braced with that Growth-enhanced STR...

I wasn't Stunned. He was.

Double handed clap as he slid down finished him of for the fight.

[WhammeWhamme]

If you don't like Knockback, that's one thing.


But I'm thinking of the Superman vs Captain Marvel fight from JLU. They're both high powered flying bricks. And every hit sent the other flying into something. And it looked damn cool.

And it made sense, really. Getting hit with all that force _should_ send you flying unless you have a reason not to.