DC's Best Martial Artist

[Enforcer84]

yet another sidetrack for me.
Who are your top ten present day, non-superhuman martial artists (Deathstroke or Karate Kid)?
No need to justify, but I'm sure some will. Let's just keep this from devolving into name calling m'kay? (Ties are acceptable)

mine, though I admit to being limited in knowledge of characters

1. Richard Dragon
2. Lady Shiva
3. Bronze Tiger, Batman, Conner Hawke
4. Black Canary, Nightwing, Manhunter, Batgirl II
5. Mr Terrific II
6. Cheshire, Wildcat
7. Arsenal, Huntress
8. Catman
9. Robin
10. Flamebird



Edit: got Flamebird's name wrong.

[Supreme Serpent]

Penguin's not up there?

[Enforcer84]

Ben? Can I?
Thanks!

*Kick!

[Blue]

Ooh, nice kick. I think Enforcer84 should be on that list somewhere.
(Below Ben, of course)

[Derek Hiemforth]

1. Richard Dragon
2. Lady Shiva
3. Bronze Tiger, Batman, Conner Hawke
4. Black Canary, Nightwing, Manhunter, Batgirl II
5. Mr Terrific II
6. Cheshire, Wildcat
7. Arsenal, Huntress
8. Catman
9. Robin
10. Firebird

That's pretty close to how I'd rank them. My list (no ties) would probably be...

1. Richard Dragon
2. Batman
3. Lady Shiva
4. Bronze Tiger
5. Black Canary
6. Batgirl II
7. Nightwing
8. Connor Hawke
9. Mr Terrific II
10. Wildcat

[Bloodstone]

When you say Batgirl II, are you talking about Cassandra Cain? Cause I though she was Batgirl III. Batgirl II was Huntress, wasn't she? I'm not all that up on my Bat clan knowlege, so I might be confused on this one...

If we're talking about Cassandra, I believe she's supposed to be right on par with Shiva. Batman is right above Shiva, having besically one shoted her in at least one encounter I know of (assuming you count Superman & Batman is fully in continuity).

Cheshire is supposedly dead. Deathstroke shot her at the end of Villian United. Course, her NOT beign dead is probably the better option for that particular story and it's not like he blew here head off... In any event, she's supposed to be the second deadliest female assassin in the DCU, right under Lady Shiva.

Speaking of Villians United, Scandal is supposed to be quite the expert fighter, right op there with the likes of Talia al Ghul.

Also, I don't think you can rank Black Cannary as a non powered martial artists, what with the Canary Cry...

[Richard Logue]

Also, I don't think you can rank Black Cannary as a non powered martial artists, what with the Canary Cry...

You can if you don't weigh that factor in. I think she's "lega" here if you're just considering her hand-to-hand skills alone.

[Jeff T.]

Wha?! No Spider-Man or Firelord?

This thread sucks, man!

[Force]

Wha?! No Spider-Man or Firelord?

This thread sucks, man!

Firelord wins hands down.

[Chimpira]

yet another sidetrack for me.
Who are your top ten present day, non-superhuman martial artists (Deathstroke or Karate Kid)?
No need to justify, but I'm sure some will. Let's just keep this from devolving into name calling m'kay? (Ties are acceptable)

mine, though I admit to being limited in knowledge of characters

1. Richard Dragon
2. Lady Shiva
3. Bronze Tiger, Batman, Conner Hawke
4. Black Canary, Nightwing, Manhunter, Batgirl II
5. Mr Terrific II
6. Cheshire, Wildcat
7. Arsenal, Huntress
8. Catman
9. Robin
10. Firebird

This is pretty close to how I see it but I would raise Batgirl to category 3 because she has beaten Shiva, in a pretty impressive fight that was a year in the making and I would add Cain to line 5 and the Question to line 7. Cain taught Batgirl and Batman. I think that they both could defeat Cain but he would definitely be a hard person to put down in a fight. The Question was part of the group trained by Richard Dragon and if I remember correctly it was Shiva that pointed him in that direction.

I will not get into the Batman one punching Shiva thing because I hated the whole Firelord/Spiderman thing that went crazy on the boards. There are quite a few things (must not grind teeth. Must not grind teeth.)that happened in that book, Superman & Batman, that I had a problem with but it happened, I have finally successfully found someone to give the book away to and I am letting it go (Must not grind teeth. Must not grind teeth.)

[Radar]

Manhunter? Mark Shaw, right? Not the current one...and I don't even remember Shaw being a martial artist of note. He could probably hold his own long enough to get away from any of the above, but beyond that, dunno if I agree.

[Chuckg]

Mark Shaw's currently suffering from an advanced case of the crazies in his own comic, and with his mental state in such a mess, God only knows what's happened to his skill level.

[Chuckg]

As for where Richard Dragon ranks -- the problem is that the latest RICHARD DRAGON mini-series is absolutely impossible to reconcile with Post-Crisis DC continuity. (Richard Dragon is a young punk in the present day, but Huntress, Oracle, and the Question were all taught by him when he was an old master -- years ago? And this is just counting post-Crisis, post-Zero-Hour stuff!)

(Note -- Dragon having taught Huntress things still having happened, confirmed a couple months of go in BIRDS OF PREY #85 -- which was *after* the recent RICHARD DRAGON mini.)

OTOH, if we specify 'Young Punk Richard Dragon', just the latest, he's still superior to Shiva, but in an indeterminate place as regards Batgirl., as they've never fought. Given that his showing vs. Shiva was more decisive, however, I must (very reluctantly -- Dragon's latest retcon made him into an *obnoxious* little bastard) say he probably laps Batgirl.

Oh, and note, Batgirl has defeated Shiva twice -- BATGIRL #25, in the epic knock-down drag-out brawl for it all (Batgirl wins by the skin of her teeth), and BATGIRL #9 (Batgirl sucker-punches Shiva with her broken arm). OTOH, Shiva's defeat of Batgirl (BATGIRL #8) occurred when Batgirl was temporarily suffering a significant neurological impairment, and had temporarily downgraded to the level where Batman was casually walking all over her face.

[Chuckg]

I will not get into the Batman one punching Shiva thing because I hated the whole Firelord/Spiderman thing that went crazy on the boards. There are quite a few things (must not grind teeth. Must not grind teeth.)that happened in that book, Superman & Batman, that I had a problem with but it happened, I have finally successfully found someone to give the book away to and I am letting it go (Must not grind teeth. Must not grind teeth.)

Just keep telling yourself 'Shiva was under Gorilla Grodd's mind control. Her martial arts style requires mental focus to work properly.'(*) over and over again...

(Not that I won't agree with you that Loeb's SUPERMAN/BATMAN run is a hideously stupid mess. This is the same guy who gave us Marshmallow Fluff Darkseid, after all.)


(*) It's the same one that Batgirl III uses, after all, and we know Cassandra can go straight from 'unbeatable' to 'shambling wreck' if she's being messed with psychically the wrong way. Their style allows the unaugmented body to reach truly metahuman levels of strength, speed, and agility -- but it requires concentration. Take that away, and they're just petite women with good muscle tone and no especial skills or reflexes... i.e,. easily overpowered by a bruiser like Batman.

[Chimpira]

Just keep telling yourself 'Shiva was under Gorilla Grodd's mind control. Her martial arts style requires mental focus to work properly.'(*) over and over again...

(Not that I won't agree with you that Loeb's SUPERMAN/BATMAN run is a hideously stupid mess. This is the same guy who gave us Marshmallow Fluff Darkseid, after all.)


(*) It's the same one that Batgirl III uses, after all, and we know Cassandra can go straight from 'unbeatable' to 'shambling wreck' if she's being messed with psychically the wrong way. Their style allows the unaugmented body to reach truly metahuman levels of strength, speed, and agility -- but it requires concentration. Take that away, and they're just petite women with good muscle tone and no especial skills or reflexes... i.e,. easily overpowered by a bruiser like Batman.

That is a good one but that would cause me to think about the book and undo all the repression I have long since made into an artform.

(Conan the Barbarian is pretty cool, I wonder why they never made a sequel? Highlander was a cool movie, I am glad that they had the forethought just to leave it alone. You mean they are going to make a remake of 'Get Carter'? I wonder when that will ever happen?)