DC's Best Martial Artist

[Chuckg]

And if they changed that big a chunk of the story, how can you be sure that they didn't change anything else?

You are arguing that a fight would still carry over, blow-for-blow, from Pre-Crisis Continuity, when huge chunks of the personal history and backstories for at least two of the three characters involved didn't?

Unreasonable presumption.

That Batman and the Bronze Tiger met Post-Crisis, established. That Kathy Kane died there, established. Exact details of event after the Crisis, anything but established.

[megaplayboy]

Hey, where does the Question rank on the list? Thought he was supposed to be pretty good...

[Chuckg]

The Question is very very good, but I don't know enough to say *how* good. I'm 99% sure he's below the Black Canary/Bronze Tiger level, but he's definitely way above the Huntress level.

[Snake Gandhi]

So, from what I'm reading here it sounds like Cassandra "I'm Batgirl" Cain is a Mary Sue.




I'm just sayin'.

After reading interviews with her creator Kelley Puckett, I'm fairly sure thats how he invisioned her. When the gist of the interview was "I made this girl to kick everyones ***. Doesn't matter who it is, she can kick their ***." then you have to wonder.

Later writers did do some good stuff with her though, so I won't complain much.

[Chuckg]

Hey, Puckett did some great stuff with her. Dude was bein' sarcastic.

[Snake Gandhi]

Hey, Puckett did some great stuff with her. Dude was bein' sarcastic.

I don't think so. Earlier in the interview he was talking about how Babs was a crappy character because she couldn't fight worth a damn.

He may be a decent writer, but that pretty much killed my opinion of the guy.

[Chuckg]

... he *had* to have been sarcastic. Some of the best Babs characterization I ever saw was in Puckett's BATGIRL run!

[Snake Gandhi]

... he *had* to have been sarcastic. Some of the best Babs characterization I ever saw was in Puckett's BATGIRL run!

If it was sarcasm he'd best watch out, cause delivery that dry is libel to catch fire at the slighest spark.

[Chuckg]

Interview vs. What's Actually In The Comic = Interview loses.

[KawangaKid]

Have the various comics actually established what the parent styles are of each martial artist? I know Batgirl's got this funky special one...

... But I think that Bats got his training from a variety of masters in surprising locations, like a Kung-Fu Master living on some island in Hawaii and a Pankration adept in Siberia. Weird stuff like that, I can't actually remember.

[Powerhouse]

She lacks the Mary Sue qualities of being better than everyone at everything else. Outside of martial arts, she varies from 'average' to 'learning disabled'. She's just a very specialized character.

Champs equivalent -- the person who dumped almost all of their character points into DEX, CV, martial maneuvers, and martial arts powers... and then came up with a backstory that made it believable.

Besides, the chief defense against accusations of Mary Suedom is quality writing, and God knows Puckett's BATGIRL run had /that/ in spades.

The biggest defense here, that Cassandra isn't a Mary Sue, is that she doesn't have the hot studs of DC falling all over her and fighting each other to sleep with her.

[st barbara]

My personal opinion is that you have both "Black Canary" and "Wildcat" at least one rank too low. No particular reason, just think they are better than you have rated them. "Wildcat" was the undefeated heavyweight boxing champion of Earth 2 after all . and hey, i've ALWAYS been a great fan of "Black Canary" !

[casualplayer]

The biggest defense here, that Cassandra isn't a Mary Sue, is that she doesn't have the hot studs of DC falling all over her and fighting each other to sleep with her.

Actually Superboy gets all goofy whenever he's around her, even though he's pretty much going steady with Wonder Girl. And Coldcast in JLE was very interested also, with the other male team members appreciative of her tight little bod (whattaya expect from Green Arrow?) I don't know if her and Arsenal have met but he's one of the hot studs of DC, and he'd probably make a pass. Who's left at DC? Wildcat? Yeah, he'd hit it.

Batgirl's book lost me after the first 30 issues, but I have to agree that Barbara was well written in the book.

[Enforcer84]

I always thought that Mr. Miracle was a decent Martial Artist but NO One has mentioned him at all.

[Chuckg]

Actually Superboy gets all goofy whenever he's around her, even though he's pretty much going steady with Wonder Girl. And Coldcast in JLE was very interested also, with the other male team members appreciative of her tight little bod (whattaya expect from Green Arrow?)

Superboy has had that Psych Lim re: a wandering eye since his character's inception, so that's not so much her Mary Sue-ness as his horniness. Besides, despite his temptation, Cassandra once made a direct pass at him and he reluctantly turned her down, so definitely no Mary Sue aura here.

As for Wildcat -- she's eighteen, fer gossake. Who do you think he is, Green Arrow?