Horror Hero?

[Yamo]

Does DoJ have any official (or semi-official) word on when we can expect to see HERO 5th's horror genre book published?

I've always had a soft spot for horror. Heck, the first thing I ever did with HERO wasn't superheros or martial arts masters or fantasy adventurers, it was low-powered Normals in a horror campaign. An official genre book (hopefully with more guidelines for Normals as PCs) would be fantasic.

Of course, "Horror Hero" is quite possibly the most inappropriate name for a horror genre book ever (as horror is about dread, terror, and helplessness, not anything resembling heroism), so I do hope the new edition with ship with something a little more evocative of the genre as a title.

Any word on when I'll have it in my hot little hands?

[Monolith]

Steve said he would be posting the 18 books on the 2004 schedule with Friday's update. To be honest though, I doubt if Horror Hero has made it into the mix. I just do not think it is popular enough to support a genre book. To be honest I think Horror Hero is just Danger International with an expanded concept of how PRE relates to characters when dealing with fear. That might make an interesting DH article too.

[Yamo]

To be honest though, I doubt if Horror Hero has made it into the mix. I just do not think it is popular enough to support a genre book.

I do think you're underestimating the appeal of horror gaming somewhat. Granted, anything that isn't sword-and-sorcery fantasy can be described as a "niche" at best, but horror is at least as popular a niche as superheroes or martial arts.

If anything other than fantasy merits a genre book, horror certainly does. I don't believe any would-be universal system can be complete without a dedicated treatment of it.

[Monolith]

I do not doubt that horror is popular, but is the demand for Horror Hero greater than the demand for Dark Champions? DC is a proven genre with an "in-house" demand; plus it is easily converted to Champions, meaning more source material available for the "big gun" game. I also think that Horror Hero would be considered a sub-genre of Dark Champions just as Danger International is, meaning it would have to be produced after Dark Champions.

I have no problem seeing Horror Hero on the schedule, but if DOJ is looking to tap into another limited market (limited in the term that Fantasy, Superhero, and SciFi are the big three) then I would suggest they go with Pulp Hero. Pulp Hero is a market which is virtually wide-open. As far as I know Forbidden Kingdom is the only pulp game in the market right now. If Pulp Hero were supported in the same fashion as Champions, Star Hero, and Fantasy Hero there could be a huge demand for that source material.

Either way we will all find out what's coming on Friday, unless Steve or Darren is willing to give us a bone.

[Balok]

The original 2004 blurb listed Dark Champions and various supporting books as the key products for 2004. But it also mentioned "another genre book ... this could be Horror Hero, Western Hero, or something we haven't thought of yet". So, you'll have an answer soon, but unless plans have changed significantly, there's room for hope.

Horror Hero might be the kind of product DoJ would hire an outside contractor to write. If you've got ideas, send them a proposal! The worst that will happen is they'll say no...

[Steve Long]

We have no specific ETA on Horror Hero. Right now I'd say the earliest we would even think about doing it would be 2006, and even that's unlikely. It's simply not popular enough in comparison to other books we want to do.

[Yamo]

It's simply not popular enough in comparison to other books we want to do.

Out of curiousity, would you perhaps be basing this on sales of previous editions? If so, I would submit to you that that was a long time ago and in an era when (in my opinion) many HERO products were a lot less well-written and generally "polished" as they are these days. Times change and I certainly think a new Horror Hero as well done as, say, Star Hero 5th, would likely sell just as well as any other genre book.

[Lord Liaden]

While I respect DoJ's long-term planning strategy, I agree with you in principle, Yamo. However, the most popular horror RPG out there is almost certainly Call of Cthulhu, which is of course grounded in the pulp era; IMHO it would make good sense for any future Pulp HERO book to include guidelines for gaming in that subgenre, which would probably have some carryover to other horror games.

It does make sense to put Pulp HERO higher on the list. Thanks to the classic Justice Incorporated sourcebook, pulp era gaming seems to have particularly strong support among HERO gamers. And it's a book that Steve has been champing at the bit to write for a long time. (I only pray that he comes up with a better name for it than Pulp HERO!)

[Steve Long]

I'm basing it on a whole variety of factors. I try to make decisions on product line planning with many bits of data in mind, not just one benchmark.

[Monolith]

Personally, I think each genre book should have a horror section written into it. It seems like horror is more of a sub-genre than a genre itself. You have Ravenloft (fantasy horror), Call of Cthulhu (pulp horror), Resident Evil (modern horror), and the list goes on and on. Even the superhero genre has had Tomb of Dracula and other "freak" squads.

I just think it is easier to include a horror section in each of the genre books than to have an entire book telling you how to play horror in each genre.

[Derek Hiemforth]

We should also keep in mind that a genre's popularity in the gaming community in general is not necessarily the same as its popularity among the gamers that the HERO System appeals to. Horror is almost surely a more popular genre than Pulp overall (for example, I'm sure Vampire and Call of Cthulhu outsell Adventure! and Forbidden Kingdoms). However, I also think it's definitely true that Pulp is the more popular among current Hero players, and probably among likely future Hero players.

While there's nothing stopping you from running a terribly grim and angsty game with the HERO System, I think the system lends itself much more, both in reputation and reality, to heroic fiction. The most successful Horror games out there really aren't very heroic in outlook. Vampire is all about the hopelessness and angst of being a monster, and CoC is all about ending up dead or insane because of confronting monsters.

The Horror Hero games I've seen and played in generally didn't have this internal grimness (which presumably means they wouldn't tap in much to the segment of the gaming population that digs Vampire and CoC). They were more heroic; a sort of "Monster Hunter Hero" where the characters were more like modern day or pulp adventurers whose adventures centered on monsters, evil cults, forbidden secrets, etc.

Don't get me wrong... I'd still like to see an actual Horror genre book at some point, but I don't think the need is imminent. I think most horror-type games I've seen in Hero will be adequately covered in the shorter term by Dark Champions and Pulp Hero/Justice Inc. when they come out, and that a full-on Horror genre book can probably follow later to flesh out the line.

Just my .02.

- Derek

[Yamo]

We should also keep in mind that a genre's popularity in the gaming community in general is not necessarily the same as its popularity among the gamers that the HERO System appeals to.

I think the system lends itself much more, both in reputation and reality, to heroic fiction.

This raises another point.

Might a good treatment of horror perhaps alleviate the impression among certain HERO detractors that it can only do high-powered games based on "kewl powerz?" There's a false impression out there among some gamers that different HERO genres really just play like superheros with swords, superheroes in space, superhero spys, martial arts superheros, and so on. I personally know this to not be the case at all; HERO can do horror and low-powered stuff as well as any system going.

"Non-Heroic Hero" might be a good way to challenge that notion and convert new people to the system that might have otherwise ignored it by demonstrating how supremely flexible it it.

Shouldn't HERO play to all its strengths instead of just "preaching to the choir" by not tackling new challenges? Genre-wise, we all know what it's done well in the past, but what about what it could do well in the future? Seems like we'd attract more new blood that way.

[Toadmaster]

Originally posted by Yamo
This raises another point.

Might a good treatment of horror perhaps alleviate the impression among certain HERO detractors that it can only do high-powered games based on "kewl powerz?" There's a false impression out there among some gamers that different HERO genres really just play like superheros with swords, superheroes in space, superhero spys, martial arts superheros, and so on. I personally know this to not be the case at all; HERO can do horror and low-powered stuff as well as any system going.

I'd have to agree with you on this point, at times it is almost as if the Champions fans don't wan't HERO to be successful with non-superheroic genres. I for one almost exclusively play lower end games (50-75 base points) and have a fairly high reality threshold (meaning I like games to resemble my take on reality) I find HERO does a reasonable job. On the otherhand I can see the point that Horror may ot be high on the list right now, Horror is largely about ambiance and currently conversions of CoC HERO or Vampire Hero are probably sufficient particularly if a good Digital HERO article on the subject were available. Isn't 4th Ed HorrorHero still available in PDF? The 4th Ed Western and Fantasy HERO were both well done, I have Horror but don't recall what I thought of it and I haven't been through it in awhile.