Your least favorite 5th Ed Characters

***Hermit*** · May 28th, '03, 04:45 PM

On more than one thread, a dislike for the CKC character Nebula has been mentioned. I loosely recall others at different times indicating a dislike for this hero or that villain in 5th Edition as well.

While I don't like to dwell on the negative, in this case I'll make an exception. After all, we might be able to collectively improve on some character concepts or at least let the PTB know what's hot, and what's not.

So, which 5th Edition characters out so far just don't do it for you? Which ones do you dislike, or down right loathe? Please give reasons if possible.

**winterhawk** · May 28th, '03, 05:29 PM

Since this seemed to have stemmed from my post on the "Footnote Characters" string...

Nebula: for the aforementioned reasons.

Zorran the Artificer because I've never been crazy about the New Gods/Eternals/Inhumans style of secret civilizations.

To stay on the positive, I will say that I have not been disappointed with any Champions suppliment (I have not purchased any Star Hero stuff, mainly for monetary reasons) as a whole since the DOJ took over, which is a lot more than I can say for previous regimes (European Enemies?!?! What were they thinking?)

**Enforcer84** · May 28th, '03, 05:36 PM

Actually, I was kind of disappointed with the changes made to Vibron. I liked him the way he was.

**Rechan** · May 28th, '03, 05:38 PM

Talisman.

Not only is it that blatant 'She's a bad person, she's more powerful because she's dabbled with black magics, and ooh, it will lead to her demise because it's blaaaack magic, and baaad'. I'm waiting for the booga booga.

Also, she just seems... I don't know. Her powers are just so *blatant*. It just doesn't feel *Magic* so much as excuse to have a bad girl with wicked toys. Maybe I just have certain attitudes when it comes to Mystics. I havn't found a realy Interesting mystic villain yet.

She's the first one that popped into my mind.

**lemming** · May 28th, '03, 05:51 PM

I don't like Takofanes mainly due to the overwhelming death machine aspect. Some of the other megavillians can be reasoned with it seems. Then maybe it's i don't like the mystic vibes in 5th?

Nebula: I kind of ignored her as a one trick pony even though she's not really.

Warlord: He just rubs me the wrong way. Probably due to a previous Warlord villian who was much cooler. (Different game...)

**TheEmerged** · May 28th, '03, 06:36 PM

Nebula is out in front. Even without the whole EDM-UAA issue, she just... doesn't work.

I like the concept of Captain Chronos. I cringe in horror at some of his executions. Besides, I still argue an NND Entangle is useless because it can't do BODY...

I also agree that Talisman feels "forced", for lack of a better description.

I'm not overly fond of Sapphire or that "wannabe Solitaire" named Witchcraft, but I can't say I actively dislike them.

**Lord Liaden** · May 28th, '03, 06:39 PM

Stalwart, from the Champions Universe book, is a character I have some difficulty swallowing. It's not so much that he's "petty, vengeful, picky, and self-absorbed," or that he's a candidate for one day stealing the Stalwart powered armor and going freelance - these are things that could make for interesting plot developments. What sticks in my craw is that the FBI would choose to pilot their one-of-a-kind anti-supervillain armor, "a former student at the FBI Academy who'd been expelled for cheating on an exam." (CU p. 117) If there was ever a job that called for the best of the best, it's being entrusted with the Stalwart suit.

Okay, I admit that the rest of it bothers me too - same reason.

**Haerandir** · May 28th, '03, 06:51 PM

I just can't get behind Nighthawk. I'd rather have seen Crusader make the leap to the current edition if the Champions absolutely had to include a 'grim vigilante detective' slot.

**winterhawk** · May 28th, '03, 07:00 PM

Originally posted by Lord Liaden
Stalwart, from the Champions Universe book, is a character I have some difficulty swallowing. It's not so much that he's "petty, vengeful, picky, and self-absorbed," or that he's a candidate for one day stealing the Stalwart powered armor and going freelance - these are things that could make for interesting plot developments. What sticks in my craw is that the FBI would choose to pilot their one-of-a-kind anti-supervillain armor, "a former student at the FBI Academy who'd been expelled for cheating on an exam." (CU p. 117) If there was ever a job that called for the best of the best, it's being entrusted with the Stalwart suit.

Okay, I admit that the rest of it bothers me too - same reason.

Wow, I guess I never gave ole Stalwart a good goings over...now I don't like him either

**Monolith** · May 28th, '03, 07:05 PM

Originally posted by Lord Liaden
If there was ever a job that called for the best of the best, it's being entrusted with the Stalwart suit.

That is a pretty common comic book clichÃ©. I never could understand why government organizations were also so quick to give every loon a shot at greatness. Major Force was always one of the worse for me, but if you think about it the entire Suicide Squad fit the bill too.

**Haerandir** · May 28th, '03, 07:33 PM

Originally posted by Monolith
That is a pretty common comic book clichÃ©. I never could understand why government organizations were also so quick to give every loon a shot at greatness. Major Force was always one of the worse for me, but if you think about it the entire Suicide Squad fit the bill too.

Well, I think it's a case of paranoid government spooks double-thinking themselves into a bad situation. See, the FBI knows that the second any government agency gives superpowers to anyone, they have set in motion a chain of events which will inevitably culminate in the super-agent going rogue. Primus has already lost a couple of Avengers that way. So, they handed the suit to an obvious bad seed so that they'd at least know he was going to go bad ahead of time, and they'd be ready for it. No doubt they've got all sorts of contingency plans in place for when he flips out and steals the suit. Besides, at least they know he's motivated and resourceful enough to cheat on his exams to get into the agency, and dumb enough to need to cheat and to get caught. So, when he goes bad, it shouldn't be too hard to catch him.

Imagine their surprise should he happen to retire from the agency after ~30 years of loyal service!

**Lord Liaden** · May 28th, '03, 07:42 PM

Originally posted by Monolith
That is a pretty common comic book clichÃ©. I never could understand why government organizations were also so quick to give every loon a shot at greatness. Major Force was always one of the worse for me, but if you think about it the entire Suicide Squad fit the bill too.

That's a fair point, Monolith, but I think the rationale is rather different here. The Suicide Squad members not only started out with powers and skills of their own, but were considered totally expendable by their government handlers precisely because they were loons, monsters and lifetime criminals. Major Force, and Captain Atom before him, were court-martialed military men who were used for experiments that the military figured they might not survive, because neither man was given a viable alternative; their superiors had no idea that superbeings would result until Capt. Atom popped out of the quantum field eighteen years later.

All of Stalwart's exceptional powers come from his armor, and the FBI had a choice as to what kind of man to give the responsibility of wearing it. They chose a selfish jerk - competent at his job, as his writeup makes clear, but not a person to inspire confidence or trust.

**wcw43921** · May 28th, '03, 07:48 PM

The one that comes immediately to mind is Black Harlequin. Too much and to obvious of a Joker swipe for me to enjoy or respect.
I also concur with Haerandir about Nighthawk. Crusader and Starburst definitely should have made it into 5th Edition.

**Lord Liaden** · May 28th, '03, 07:51 PM

Originally posted by Haerandir
Well, I think it's a case of paranoid government spooks double-thinking themselves into a bad situation. See, the FBI knows that the second any government agency gives superpowers to anyone, they have set in motion a chain of events which will inevitably culminate in the super-agent going rogue. Primus has already lost a couple of Avengers that way. So, they handed the suit to an obvious bad seed so that they'd at least know he was going to go bad ahead of time, and they'd be ready for it. No doubt they've got all sorts of contingency plans in place for when he flips out and steals the suit. Besides, at least they know he's motivated and resourceful enough to cheat on his exams to get into the agency, and dumb enough to need to cheat and to get caught. So, when he goes bad, it shouldn't be too hard to catch him.

Imagine their surprise should he happen to retire from the agency after ~30 years of loyal service!

LOL! That's an interesting rationale, Haerandir, and the logic is almost twisted enough to fit the government brass mindset.

I guess my problem is that Lucius Grimes aka Stalwart isn't like the loyal, dedicated men and women that the government entrusts with their fighter airplanes or the controls to their missile silos. Sure, one could imagine one of them going rogue too, but it's not something their bosses are counting on.

**Haerandir** · May 28th, '03, 08:14 PM

Originally posted by Lord Liaden
LOL! That's an interesting rationale, Haerandir, and the logic is almost twisted enough to fit the government brass mindset. I guess my problem is that Lucius Grimes aka Stalwart isn't like the loyal, dedicated men and women that the government entrusts with their fighter airplanes or the controls to their missile silos. Sure, one could imagine one of them going rogue too, but it's not something their bosses are counting on.

Well, sure. The military's been doing this sort of thing since forever. They've got it down to a science. You'll note that the FBI doesn't have much experience with fighter planes and missile silos. The FBI is hardly as bad as the CIA or similar pure espionage organizations, but they spend most of their time chasing terrorists, serial killers and covert paramilitary organizations. It's bound to warp their thinking. They're just not used to thinking in terms of 'loyal, dedicated and trustworthy' so much as 'not too disloyal, fairly dedicated and more-or-less trustworthy'.

At least, that's how it seems to work in fiction. We're talking conspiracy-theory fodder here, not real life. I have no intention of impugning the loyalty/dedication/trustworthiness of real-world FBI types.

Having said all of that, I'm not a huge Stalwart fan, either...