Watched vs. Social Limitation

[Agent333]

TIme was my characters who were working for an organization (Police, Military, Supervillain) would take the Watched limitation as a way to signify that they were subject to orders from their leaders. Now, I see that Soc Lim: "Subject to Orders" is here. Does this replace my Watched limitation from 4th Edition days or can it be used in conjunction with the Watched limitation.

Please help. Much thanx.

Agent333

[Law Dog]

It's a good question. My own take would be the Subject to Orders limitation would fit the bill for normal duty military and police and the Watched could be an additional limitation in a circumstance where the Watchee is doing or has the opportunity to do something that the Watchers wouldn't approve of.

So, let's say your a normal LAPD detective who isn't prone to go too far outside of the normal limits of police behavior, then the Subject to Orders is fine, but if you're like Vic Makey from the Shield, you definitely get the Watched which means when you act outside your perview, you had better make sure you cover your tracks well.

[JmOz]

My take is that both are appropriate.

The subject to orders is to represent someone can boss them around

The watched means that they are under a code of conduct that has an enforcement arm to it (A Police Officer has to follow certain rules that a civilian does not)

[Derek Hiemforth]

Another spin would be to say that the Social Lim generally represents the restrictions of being in a hierarchically-structured group, and adding a Watched means that your "chain of command" or what have you is monitoring you more closely than normal for some reason.

For example, all police officers might have Subject To Orders, while only those suspected of being loose cannons or bribe-takers have Watched by police. All of the Greek gods might have Subject to Orders (from Zeus), while only Ares has Watched by Zeus (because he isn't trusted), and so on.

[Super Squirrel]

Originally posted by Agent333
TIme was my characters who were working for an organization (Police, Military, Supervillain) would take the Watched limitation as a way to signify that they were subject to orders from their leaders. Now, I see that Soc Lim: "Subject to Orders" is here. Does this replace my Watched limitation from 4th Edition days or can it be used in conjunction with the Watched limitation.

Please help. Much thanx.

Agent333

Because you are subject to orders you must have the Social Limitation. I would also go on to state that if they do not trust you, you are Watched.

[Derek Hiemforth]

I should have added that, of course, it is possible for an organization to be paranoid enough that all of its members have both Subject To Orders and Watched. (Intelligence agencies might fall into this category for example, as might criminal agencies like VIPER).

[ogier300]

An example of how I see the difference:

For part of his run, Captain America would help out Nick Fury and SHIELD on various missions. He wasn't, however, a SHIELD agent. This is "Watched: SHIELD".

On the other hand, Black Widow was a SHIELD agent for a time. She gets Social Lim: Subject to Orders.

Basically, the difference is that while Cap could blow off Nick and do what he liked (with the main consequence being SHIELD getting pissy at him), Natasha could be fired and lose her job, as well as having SHIELD pissy at her.

[Agent333]

Wow, thanks you guys. I think I have it now and Super Squirrel summed it up most succinctly:

Because you are subject to orders you must have the Social Limitation. I would also go on to state that if they do not trust you, you are Watched.

That goes to the root of my question, but you all covered the other extenuating circumstances that also apply (at least as far as my RPGs are likey to go)

Thanx again.

[BasilDrag]

Originally posted by Super Squirrel
Because you are subject to orders you must have the Social Limitation. I would also go on to state that if they do not trust you, you are Watched.

Star Hero, p.306-307, has a NPC (Major Allyssa Barth) who is a honest, by-the-book cop, who has both Watched and Subject to Orders.

IME, all cops are Watched (by their superiors, the Internal Affairs Office, etc.) as well as Subject to Orders. The same is true of DAs, some military, etc. It is not always necessary for active, specific suspicion to occur for someone to be Watched. Throughout the Law Enforcement, Intelligence and Military communities (and perhaps others) there is a level of institutional 'suspicion' that results in members of those communities being Watched.

Now, what roll that Watched has is another matter....

[Agent333]

Originally posted by BasilDrag
Star Hero, p.306-307, has a NPC (Major Allyssa Barth) who is a honest, by-the-book cop, who has both Watched and Subject to Orders.

Darn! Y'see, just another of the thousands of reasons ol' Agent333 needs to get a copy of Star Hero. I promise I'll get one in another couple of weeks. Thanks, BasilDrag.

[Chaosliege]

Originally posted by BasilDrag
Star Hero, p.306-307, has a NPC (Major Allyssa Barth) who is a honest, by-the-book cop, who has both Watched and Subject to Orders.

IME, all cops are Watched (by their superiors, the Internal Affairs Office, etc.) as well as Subject to Orders. The same is true of DAs, some military, etc. It is not always necessary for active, specific suspicion to occur for someone to be Watched. Throughout the Law Enforcement, Intelligence and Military communities (and perhaps others) there is a level of institutional 'suspicion' that results in members of those communities being Watched.

Now, what roll that Watched has is another matter....

It make sense to me that they'd have both. The IA is always watching the police. The frequency is the only thing that would change. I don't have Star Hero, but your example sounds like it would be like an -8. If the guy being watched is a rogue cop like in previouse examples, you could up it to -14. Or even a hunted by Internal Afairs -8.

[Syberdwarf2]

Subject to Orders and Watched actually kind of belong together. A police officer is subject to orders. If the police officer isn't watched, he could turn into a rouge cop/bad cop.
Which can, does, and has happened.

[Law Dog]

Originally posted by Syberdwarf2
Subject to Orders and Watched actually kind of belong together. A police officer is subject to orders. If the police officer isn't watched, he could turn into a rouge cop/bad cop.
Which can, does, and has happened.

Good points, but the way I tend to look at it has to do with character (psych lims, actually) of the character. I'd rule that if the character would never, under normal circumstances, do anything that would get them in trouble from being watched, then they don't get the Watched as a disadvantage.

It's kind of like only letting the characters get points for psych lims that are actually of consequence. Who of us in the real world counld come up with a long-as-your-sleeve list of personality quirks that you have in real life. Play a board game like Scruples sometimes for further enlightenment about yourself.

The point is, most of the time we wouldn't do anything real bad in the real world, at least not if there was a good chance we could get caught. Most of us speed to some extent, but the police aren't actively out radar-gunning us specifically. Some of us have been known to get creative with our taxes, but the IRS isn't usually auditing us to get their extra $20. My take on it is, unless you are doing something actively or have done something in the past or some agency believes that you have a reason to do something, you don't get the Watched.

Now, if it comes about during roleplaying that the character does something to invoke one of these reasons, then they get the Watched, just like acquiring a new hunted with no points.

It's sort of like innocent until proven guilty. Sure IAD watches cops, but it doesn't watch them specifically without reason. This is why their are some bad cops (at least in fiction) that get away with a lot. Some of them are actively watched, but still don't get caught because they are that far ahead of the ball game.

To me, Watched implies the watcher has a reason to be watching and if they are watching at just the right time, then the consequences will be dire.

[BasilDrag]

Originally posted by Chaosliege
It make sense to me that they'd have both. The IA is always watching the police. The frequency is the only thing that would change. I don't have Star Hero, but your example sounds like it would be like an -8. If the guy being watched is a rogue cop like in previouse examples, you could up it to -14. Or even a hunted by Internal Afairs -8.

From Star Hero:
>10 Hunted: Imperial Security Police 8- (Mo
> Pow, NCI, Watching)

Yeah, it's a standard cop's Watched---Mo Pow, NCI, 8-

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As so as I complain, the boards start working right. ::sigh::