The Stagnant RPG marketplace

**Blue** · Jun 2nd, '03, 09:14 AM

It's an age-old topic. But as I teach new players to play hero it's something that has come back to mind.

I'd like to start by saying that it's scary how much people know about the system here. I've found these boards both helpful and intimidating. If I offer a question I found out one of two things: There are at least three other ways of doing things that I hadn't thought of yet, - or - My initial reasoning was faulty due to a rule I'd forgotten or never knew. At least it forces me to look up as much in the FAQ and Errata as I can before I post a question.

Now the topic I wanted to discuss is the difficulty of the system.

Hero, like *all* rpgs, is a victim of it's own success. Have you seen 1st edition? Everybody has a flat EB, Killing Attack, or Drain with maybe a focus, and that's it. With wanting to do more things comes more rules. The first ed. is ridiculously small. As I'm teaching my veteran players how to play the system for either the first time or simply the first time in over a decade, I'm seeing just how steep the learning curve is and that I am lucky to at least be the beneficiary of having played the game intensively a long time ago because I have a foundation on which to work.

The problem as I see it:

More players buying the system = more rules questions.
More rules questions = more rules, errata, and FAQs.
More rules = thicker books and a far, far steeper learning curve.
Steeper learning curve = fewer new players

I know that in my current situation, with players who do not know the game, if I didn't already have a basis in the system and I wanted to run a superhero game I'd be more likely to pick up something that *looks* simpler than big ol' FREd.

Do you see a way around this problem? Fuzion *may* have been an attempt at this (and one that seems to have irritated everyone here). What do we do to encourage people into the game, and particularly THIS game [Hero]?

**BlackSword** · Jun 2nd, '03, 10:00 AM

As a new player I was actually brought in by the excellent material. Specifically Star Hero. I have been looking for a good scifi game for quite a while and I saw Star Hero and another scifi book (DragonStar I think) at my FLGS. I looked up reviews of both on RPG.net and Star Hero seemed far and away to be the better buy. I bought it, read it and realized I need the main book. The system looked fanatastic so I didn't mind shelling out the money to get FREd. I read through it and realized the best way to learn the system would be to play it, so I posted here looking for a group and found one.

So that's my testimonial (can I get an amen brothers?). While the learning curve is steep, the biggest selling point is the completeness of the system. Yes it is rules heavy, but it covers everything, and the rules can be pared down(or optional rules added) as needed.

Also, the excellent supplements. I am amazed by the price and quality of all the products currently for sale. If you read the reviews on RPG.net, all of the substance ratings are 5. If you buy Star Hero, you can run any scifi game you want, and its complete enough that it can be used for another system. From the sounds of the Fanatasy Hero book, it will be very similar in terms of completeness for that genre.

**sbarron** · Jun 2nd, '03, 11:19 AM

Amen

**zornwil** · Jun 3rd, '03, 02:21 PM

This is a pretty valid topic, one that I think isn't so much about HERO (though it applies especially well to HERO) but rather the whole industry. AD&D/d20 and most RPGs now seem rather rules-heavy (remember the old day when you'd get something that really only had 10-20 substantive pages of rules?). I believe part of the "bleed" from F2F RPGs to online and computer gaming is that learning curve. I think the idea of having "rules light" versions of games is helpful. But it's also a societal issue and a desire of people to pick up games that are "self-teaching" or otherwise more in sync with the tools today's younger people are both adept at and need to gain more skill at for the workplace.

**Lord Liaden** · Jun 3rd, '03, 05:06 PM

This topic often comes up in different venues.

There are quite a few current HERO players who were initially intimidated by the bulk of the system rules, but eventually were either drawn in by veterans who were playing the game and could show them the ropes, or finally decided to wade into the rulebook and were able to see the underlying coherence of the system. Other people were immediately drawn to the versatility, completeness and "crunchiness" of HERO, because they enjoy that type of game.

Almost everyone here agrees that a slimmed-down "entry level" version of the rules, concentrating on the basic concepts and most common options, would be very useful to ease newbies into HERO gaming. Steve Long has come to agree with that view and has promised to write such a work, tentatively called the HERO System Sidekick (his suggestion

), probably as a free downloadable PDF. Unfortunately, Steve's schedule has left him no chance to work on it, and he's stated that he wants to write it himself because of the depth of system knowledge that would be required. So there's no telling when it will happen, but we do have a commitment from the man himself.

**Toadmaster** · Jun 8th, '03, 09:04 PM

Personnally I think its the size of FRED that makes it so intimidating, 1st Ed Champions is basically still in there, its just that now Champions 2, 3, Espionage, FH, DI, JI are also tucked in plus you have years of modifications. But if you boil it down to the basics (OCV, DCV, 11-, basic powers, Adv and Lims etc) its still pretty simple but the addition of all the extras makes one feel the need to use all of it. If you are starting out with new players I'd suggest you keep the powers fairly simple and then add in more as skill increases or character concept requires. I've been playing HERO since the beginning and I regularly ask questions I could of looked up but forgot it was dealt with in the book.

If you look at gaming since the 1970's the rules light vs rules heavy and cinematic vs realistic has waxed and waned over the years, I remember when I thought D&D was simple, now I'm lost going through the d20 rules. Than there were those great nearly unplayable games like Aftermath and Space Opera with rules apparantly written for maximum complexity and minimum payoff (although I'll admit that Aftermath was a favorite of mine for some time) and the grandmaster of complex Phoenix Command (although the complexity payed off if you had the patience). I've been buying a number of old RPG's on ebay recently and its been fun sorting through the rules and watching how the trends came and went and occasionally finding some little bit of brilliance hidden away that somehow went unnoticed before.

**TheEmerged** · Jun 9th, '03, 02:34 PM

RE: d20's "Complexity". Sorry for the scare quotes, I couldn't say that with a straight face.

Anyway, d20 itself is very simple. It's the exceptions that bite you in the butt...

**Vondy** · Jun 9th, '03, 10:10 PM

Originally posted by Blue

Fuzion *may* have been an attempt at this (and one that seems to have irritated everyone here).

INFIDEL!!!!

Who dares utter the name which may not be mentioned in the sake of all that is Fred?!

BLAS-PHEEEEMER!!!!

**Snarf** · Jun 9th, '03, 11:05 PM

I think the best thing to help people get started would be bunch more example powers, characters, vehicles, and equipment of all genres, as a book or free pdf.

**Bartman** · Jun 10th, '03, 07:19 AM

I think Sidekick is desperately needed. And frankly now that Steve is done with Fantasy Hero, I would suggest that it should probably be the highest priority. I wrote my own years ago. Basically I took the Hero 4th Edition Rulebook PDF and cut it down to 30-40 pages. Due to copyright, I would never think of making it publicly available. But when I have introduced new players to the system it has been a godsend.

**Captain Obvious** · Jun 10th, '03, 07:40 AM

I would think that a series of Hero mini-games would be a good thing for new players. Basically, these would have the basic rules and a small cross-section of the powers.

An example might be a psychic detectives game, with the skills necessary for simple combat and investigation, along with the Mental Powers and a handful of Advantages and Limitations for them.

Another example might be a star-farer game, with a selection of Powers that could represent alien racial powers, and a few high tech applications.

As new players get used to the basics with these games, and then realize that FREd has even more cool stuff they can do (you mean my psychic detective could develop pyrokinesis?), the learning curve isn't nearly so steep or scary.

**Blue** · Jun 10th, '03, 07:49 AM

I think that conceptually it's an easy combat system. Where Hero seems to trip up new players is character creation. The most common mistakes I see involve character math. Things like trying to subtract the total limitation from the total advantage, not including the base "1" when doing the computations ("How come a +1/2 advantage saved me points?").

Any other criticisms are not singular to hero. Things like having to read through and understand many powers/skills/perks/talents (In other games it's Spells, Skills, Feats and what-have-ya.). And a good GM is needed to prevent major holes in the character ("You don't have any resistant defeshe", "You're character is going to have a lot of problems with seeing in the dark", "A 6D6K is way too big for this campaign"). And then there's the matter of not understanding how to achieve the effect you want by using the building blocks assigned to you ("How do I do all those cool things spiderman does with his webshooters? Seems like one power, why do I have to buy all of them seperate?")

**Killer Shrike** · Jun 10th, '03, 08:03 AM

Originally posted by BlackSword
So that's my testimonial (can I get an amen brothers?). While the learning curve is steep, the biggest selling point is the completeness of the system. Yes it is rules heavy, but it covers everything, and the rules can be pared down(or optional rules added) as needed.

Amen brother.

BTW, half my family on my dads side lives in St Charles, "Misery" (as my Dad calls it); both his sisters and most of thier many children (all but 1 daughters -- I was the only son of an only son of an only son of an only son -- then my brother came along and ruined it

). Know any Medlocks or Potters?

**Killer Shrike** · Jun 10th, '03, 08:28 AM

I dunno. Me, the day I picked up the BBB all those years ago and flipped through it I was like "WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGH! --- FINALLY!"

And boy did I screw up my initial attempts to run it that 1st summer between school years. Looking back on it, the characters were way overpowered, and several key rules interpretations were way off base or missing completely. But we got the basic idea down. Spend points, make powers, apply multipliers, apply divisors. Roll 3d6. Hit low hurt high. Post Segment 12 Recovery = happy time. We had fun.

My fellow gamers were ambivalent about it all. Why not play MSH Advanced for Supers, AD&D 2e for fantasy, Star Frontiers for space, Gamma World for post apoc, Shadowrun for (kinda) cyberpunk, Top Secret/SI for espionage, etc etc. Simpletons that they were, they didnt see the potential of an "everything" system

. Then WW entered the picture, and that was the last time I played Champs with that group; VtM consumed the rest of high school and then I split town. I introduced new groups to the HERO System as I went and ran many different genre's in many different campaigns. Players came and went. Some liked the system, others were ambivalent. Some were vets, most were new to the system. Some really took to it, most were content to let the "gear-heads" like me figure it all out. If I werent running the game, Im sure that 9 out 10 of the 50+ players I've had im my HEROs games over the years would not play the HERO System if someone else knowledgable about the system werent running the game. The other 1 out of 10 are converts, but only 2 of them GMd thier own HERO games that I know of (and I played in both).

The more I played the better I got at it, naturally, but 12 years of playing the HERO System off and on as my personal favorite/primary system, I still dont know it all, make mistakes, have to make spot judgements in play and then later look it up to discover I was wrong. I probably average around a 90% correctness. You'd think after all this time such mistakes would be a thing of the past; other games are much easier to master generally IMO; but the complexity of the HERO System and the odd ball situations that come up are staggering in thier variations.

I guess the point Im trying to make is that some people are going to be attracted by the complexity, and most arent. If the HERO System were simplified it might attract more players, but on the other hand, the fullness of its design precepts is a large part of what makes it special. Why play a watered down version of HEROs instead of just picking a "set piece" RPG where the rules and the setting are conjoined, or d20?

(I kind of think of d20 as The Universal Game System for Dummies -- and I mean that in the vein of the book series wherein complex concepts are 'dumbed down' for the masses, and not as an insult -- Ive played d20, and it has its uses)

**Lord Liaden** · Jun 10th, '03, 08:48 AM

Killer Shrike, that's eloquently expressed; I'm sure a lot of us here can recognize some of our own experiences in your comments.

I for one would never expect a "watered-down" version of the HERO System to replace the main book. That completely misses the point of a complete flexible system. I'd just like something to help newcomers get past the initial reaction of looking at the bulk of FREd and going, "Am I supposed to read this book or club seals with it?!"