How to model posessed armor with a PC inside?

[Xandarr]

I'm in the process of starting a new superheroic campaign (YAY!!), and my players and I were brainstorming on the game world and the characters, as well as the main enemy team. I think we've come up with a great world to play in, with an epic reason for the team to work together for the betterment of mankind (and the universe!). However, during the discussion, we came upon an interesting sticking point with which I would like some advice.

The game world is much like our own, except that instead of the Industrial Revolution, there was instead a Magical Revolution. Magic is strong and has been the key to advancement since the invention of Sunpowder (a magical derivative of sunlight with explosive abilities). So now the characters live in a world similar to, but slightly askew from our own.

One of the characters is an archaeologist who specialises in the finding and excavating of rare treasures from foreign tombs. In a magical world, you can imagine how dangerous this might be. Our hero is something like Indiana Jones before his first big break. On one of his excavations, he discovered some ancient runes, which he hastily translated one night, leading him to a hidden chamber deep in the tomb. There, he finds an ancient set of pure golden armor. Next to the armor is an amulet, to which the character is inexorably drawn. It seems to be calling to him, exhorting him to wear it. He does, and is immediately contacted by the spirit of an ancient warrior (we'll call him "Bob" for now). The warrior Bob is a previous servant of one of the ancient gods (haven't chosen which pantheon yet), who nearly acheived avatar status before he was destroyed by an extremely powerful undead (maybe Takofanes). Bob convinces the PC that he must take up the armor and fight on behalf of good and righteousness as the next chosen warrior of (insert god's name here). Our archaeologist agrees, and a new hero is born. Basically, he will be a powered armor type, but the armor will by powered by magic with elemental powers as the special effects. First, I need a good elemental god to use as the patron and symbol of the armor.

So we've got the player who is "haunted" in a way by the ancient warrior Bob. Bob now has a deep hatred for all undead and/or animated items (such as golems/robots, etc). Bob will be the special effect of some skills (KS: Religion for example), as well as a constant mentor to the fledgling hero. However, this mentor lives in the PC's head. Actually, he lives in the amulet, but since the amulet is now permanently bonded to the PC, he's pretty much there for life. As an interesting side effect of having Bob in the PC's head all the time, I want there to be a chance that if something happens to dramatically weaken the willpower of the PC while he's inside the armor (such as maybe an ECV based Entangle or an Ego Drain), then he is unable to resist Bob's will and Bob takes posession of the armor with the hero still inside! He then uses the armor as if he were still alive until such time as the PC can regain control, or the armor is removed, or the warrior completes some task related to his quest for vengeance on the undead.

How would you model this effect in game terms? I don't want to just handwave this, because it will have advantages and disadvantages, so I would like to model it with character points. Any help that the rather insightful members of the Hero Gaming Community can give would be very much appreciated.

Thanks in advance,
Steve

[Fitz]

Hmmm..... maybe a Multiform which doesn't actually change the character's physical form or characteristics? Both characters could have Accidental Change related to, say, having their EGO halved in some way, to reflect a see-sawing of control over the body and a more-or-less constant struggle for command. This assumes that neither consciousness is strong enough to simply wrest control from the other unless the other is weakened somehow.

If the body is Stunned or knocked out, a straight EGO vs EGO roll could be used to determine who gets control when consciousness returns. That would allow for more frequent changes in persona than you'd get if you just had to wait for yet another EGO Drain to happen along.

[Wyrm Ouroboros]

The skills he gains from 'Bob' ...

Okay, I hate 'Bob the Ancient Warrior of Light'. Let's go with someone with a bit more pep. Ramses. (And, btw, most ancient gods had one, maybe two 'elements' associated with them, never all of them, so Ramses is going to have to be the Chosen Warrior of an entire Pantheon -- not a bad gig, if you can get it.)

Okay. The skills and powers he gains from Ramses -- not from the armor itself (which, I presume, is powered by the gods themselves) -- should all be taken IIF Amulet. In addition, you (the GM) should come up with Ramses' psych-profile, i.e. Intelligence, Ego, and Presence, any skills he has that he ISN'T passing along to his student, and his list of Psychological Limitations.

For the Possession part, you have two choices: either make it a 'simple' Psych Lim, or else (the more expensive choice) make it a Multiform, triggered by the stunning/unconsciousness of the first form. It all depends, of course, on whether you want Ramses to have similar pursuits as Joe Superhero; I presume they are, therefore the Multiform is the way to go. Naturally, being required to purchase the powers all over again will 'tone down' the power of the armor, but that's what you get with Multiforms.

[Enforcer84]

Perhaps, you could have a good deal of Stun bought with the Trigger advantage to represent Bob Ramses' control. With a side effect of having different Psych Lims and personality.

THis would have to be relatively strictly regulated 1 charge per day, cause if Bob Ramses goes out they're both out for the count.

It might be a broken power but it would give you the abilities you desire.

[Lord Liaden]

I've seen the "separate intelligence sharing a body" bit written up before. IMO the cleanest way to do this would be to write up "Bob" as an AI Follower with a Mind Link to your hero - that way you can define his Skills and Disadvantages separately from the hero's. He can communicate Knowledge Skills directly to your hero via the Mind Link, while any other practical Skills that Bob has which the character gains (e.g. Combat Driving) can have the Usable on Others Advantage applied to it.

Since you want only "a chance" for Bob to take control when your hero's will is weakened, I'd say that Accidental Change is the way to go. If you want to pay for the ability for Bob to use the armor's powers when the hero is mentally incapacitated, you could try applying UOO to all the abilities that the hero gains from the armor.

It's difficult to come up with with one god who has influence over the traditional four elements of Western philosophy, since that's a later invention in most societies than their pagan pantheons. My suggestion would be a forge/craftsman god like Hephaestus/Vulcan; that's a natural for creation of armor, and you can justify influence over fire, earth and metal.

The game world sounds like a lot of fun - hope you knock yourself out! (Or at least a few PCs.)

[nHammer]

Bob Ramses....Well now that folks have come up with a name for the archaeologist, let us see what you can come up with next.

[Xandarr]

Wow! A lot of great ideas. I'd like to clarify something before I conintue. The special effect of Bob (aka Ramses) is that he can only take over when the PC's will is drained or "shunted" off in some way. However, I definitely do not want this to be related to his Stun in any way whatsoever. I'm not looking for a way to keep the hero up and fighting once he's dazed or unconscious. Basically what I'm looking for is for Bob to be able to posess the PC"s body if the mind becomes weak enough. If the PC is stunned, so is Bob. If the PC is unconsious, so is Bob. They inhabit the same mind and body, but Bob can take over if great need arises.

I do like a lot of the ideas, and I might shift them from Stun to Ego and see how they work out. The chances of using this power are going to be rare enough that it might be needed only one game session in 5 or 10, so I don't want it to be overly expensive. It's something to add flavor, but isn't a major power.

Originally posted by Lord Liaden
I've seen the "separate intelligence sharing a body" bit written up before. IMO the cleanest way to do this would be to write up "Bob" as an AI Follower with a Mind Link to your hero - that way you can define his Skills and Disadvantages separately from the hero's. He can communicate Knowledge Skills directly to your hero via the Mind Link, while any other practical Skills that Bob has which the character gains (e.g. Combat Driving) can have the Usable on Others Advantage applied to it.

Thanks!! I think that so far, this is the best idea I have seen. I can give Bob Disads that reflect his necessity of sharing a body with the hero, and the skills will be cheap, even with the UOO advantages. This will make the point value low, but keep the flavor that I am looking for. I'm wondering if I shouldn't give Bob a really big Mind Control power with appropriate limitations usable only on the character in certain circumstances and with a Trigger. Not sure how point-prohibitive it might be but it's definitely an option.

Originally posted by Lord Liaden
Since you want only "a chance" for Bob to take control when your hero's will is weakened, I'd say that Accidental Change is the way to go. If you want to pay for the ability for Bob to use the armor's powers when the hero is mentally incapacitated, you could try applying UOO to all the abilities that the hero gains from the armor.

Hmm... here's where things will get pretty expensive. Since the armor is basically a set of Power Armor with a magical SFX (and I'm using OiHID instead of OIF for the powers), it's going to be the majority of the PC's abilities. Making all of them UOO is going to cost a ton for something that is basically just a dash of flavor for the character.

One thing that I had considered doing is giving the character an Enraged/Berzerk disad and changing the effect to "posessed" instead of "berzerk". Does anyone see any problems with going this route. If this were my character in your campaign, do you think I'd still have to spend points for Bob to take over? I realize that I'm the GM, but I want to be fair and make the ability as mechanically sound as possible.

Originally posted by Lord Liaden
It's difficult to come up with with one god who has influence over the traditional four elements of Western philosophy, since that's a later invention in most societies than their pagan pantheons. My suggestion would be a forge/craftsman god like Hephaestus/Vulcan; that's a natural for creation of armor, and you can justify influence over fire, earth and metal.

Excellent suggestion again! I think I'll couple this with Wyrm Ouroboros' suggestion of having Bob be a warrior for an entire pantheon. I'll take a look at some pantheons as a whole and see which one's might fit the bill, although Greek/Roman is looking good right now.

Originally posted by Lord Liaden
The game world sounds like a lot of fun - hope you knock yourself out! (Or at least a few PCs.)

Thanks! It's going to be a combination of Supers/Fantasy/Stargate kind of campaign. Complex, but with a lot of options. The characters are basically guardians of the Magical Gate of Power, which has access to all other magical gates in the universe. The main power behind their opponents has access to the Technical Gate of Power, which can access any other technical gate in the universe. Many planets will have both types of gates on them, which provides an opportunity for tons of different scenarios, and a good solid basis for the main NPC villain team. Each character has a direct tie to the others, as well as a direct tie to one of the major bad guys. Perhaps later this week I'll give descriptions of the PC's and Villains, as well as the backstory for the campaign.

In any case, thanks to everyone for their suggestions so far. Further input on my follow-up questions is appreciated.

Thanks!!
Steve

[WhammeWhamme]

Why not just buy some form of resistance to Mind Weakening effects with side effects then?

e.g:

13 +10 EGO, If needed Bob ends up in control. (-1/2)

Or something like that.

[Lord Liaden]

Originally posted by Xandarr
Hmm... here's where things will get pretty expensive. Since the armor is basically a set of Power Armor with a magical SFX (and I'm using OiHID instead of OIF for the powers), it's going to be the majority of the PC's abilities. Making all of them UOO is going to cost a ton for something that is basically just a dash of flavor for the character.

One thing that I had considered doing is giving the character an Enraged/Berzerk disad and changing the effect to "posessed" instead of "berzerk". Does anyone see any problems with going this route. If this were my character in your campaign, do you think I'd still have to spend points for Bob to take over? I realize that I'm the GM, but I want to be fair and make the ability as mechanically sound as possible.

My suggestion of UoO for all the suit's Powers was only for if you yourself wanted to account for Bob's ability to take control of the armor - lots of HERO gamers like everything like that to be tallied up. Personally, I as a GM would be fine with letting an appropriate Disadvantage take care of that by itself, especially since you don't want Bob's success at taking over to be automatic. But I could suggest some Power mechanics which might not be too expensive, if you'd like.

Your idea of changing the "Enraged" Disad to a "Possessed" one has merit mechanically, but the effects although undesirable for the "host" character (I'm going to call him Joe for sake of discussion), are not nearly as debilitating as Enraged - Bob is presumably not a berserker and could deal with a situation quite rationally once he was in control of the armor. If you went that route I would reduce the value of the Disadvantage by at least one level. However, if Joe has Accidental Change he "may not change back until the circumstances which caused the change have altered" (FREd p. 212), so you as GM have some leeway in determining what those circumstances are. If you want to have the dice rolls represent a struggle for control between the two characters, you might consider giving Bob an Accidental Change Disad as well, which kicks in when the circumstances that triggered Joe's change have been resolved.

Now those circumstances have me a bit confused. Having Bob take control of Joe's armor whenever Joe is mentally debilitated (Ego Drained or Entangled were your examples) is usually a short-term circumstance, which really wouldn't allow for quests by Bob which was one of the examples you gave. I'd suggest making the Accidental Change occur when Joe is faced with situations of great importance to Bob which Bob would want to act on, instead of or in addition to the Ego-affecting conditions. That would let Bob take extended control until whatever task he wanted to accomplish was completed.

The campaign sounds pretty wild, but I'll reserve further comment until you can present your backstory.

[Lord Liaden]

I decided to offer up my suggestion for a power to enable Bob to take control - sorry I didn't wait for your solicitation, but I couldn't restrain myself any longer.

What I was thinking of is essentially the "Mind Transferrence" ability from The Ultimate Mentalist: a Mental Major Transform used on Joe to place the mind of Bob into his body. The SFX of this could be that Joe's mind would be submerged, or he could switch places with Bob as the AI; since the AI is essentially impotent, this would be no Limitation on the Transform (as recommended in UM). Bob would gain all of the host body's Powers and all Physical Characteristics, but retain his INT, EGO, and maybe PRE, as well as Skills. Because of the cumulative nature of Transform, and the fact that you don't necessarily want it to take effect immediately, the cost of the Power can be relatively low. You can also define whatevert circumstances you think would "feel" appropriate to break the Transform and restore Joe to control.

As a sample writeup based on Mind Transference, let's say 1D6 Major Transform (15 BP), Based on ECV (+1), Works vs. EGO instead of BODY (+0 in most campaigns, unless BODY tends to be significantly higher or lower than EGO), Fully Invisible (+1) since it doesn't sound like it should be apparent, 0 END unless the AI has an END Reserve for some reason: Active Points 52. If Joe's armor grants him Mental Defense, make the Transform Armor Piercing or Penetrating based on what would be most effective, so AP go to 60.

To this you apply No Range (-1/2) and Only Under Appropriate Conditions (at least -1/2 from your description), bringing the Real Points to 30. Your target would also be a Very Limited group (i.e. just Joe), which would be another -1 making the RP 20. Other Lims could be applied to make the Power more random, such as Activation Roll.

[Xandarr]

Originally posted by Lord Liaden
My suggestion of UoO for all the suit's Powers was only for if you yourself wanted to account for Bob's ability to take control of the armor - lots of HERO gamers like everything like that to be tallied up. Personally, I as a GM would be fine with letting an appropriate Disadvantage take care of that by itself, especially since you don't want Bob's success at taking over to be automatic. But I could suggest some Power mechanics which might not be too expensive, if you'd like.

Thanks for everything you've offered so far. I'll toss my comments in and fill in the blanks where I can.

Originally posted by Lord Liaden
Your idea of changing the "Enraged" Disad to a "Possessed" one has merit mechanically, but the effects although undesirable for the "host" character (I'm going to call him Joe for sake of discussion), are not nearly as debilitating as Enraged - Bob is presumably not a berserker and could deal with a situation quite rationally once he was in control of the armor. If you went that route I would reduce the value of the Disadvantage by at least one level. However, if Joe has Accidental Change he "may not change back until the circumstances which caused the change have altered" (FREd p. 212), so you as GM have some leeway in determining what those circumstances are. If you want to have the dice rolls represent a struggle for control between the two characters, you might consider giving Bob an Accidental Change Disad as well, which kicks in when the circumstances that triggered Joe's change have been resolved.

Yes, I think this is a good suggestion. I'm thinking of having the trigger for the change be reduction of Ego to half it's full level, or any kind of ECV based "blocking" power (such as Entangle), which cuts Joe's mind off from the armor in some way. Mind Control wouldn't qualify, since he would still have full ability to interact with the armor, although Mental Illusions might, if he was made to believe that he wasn't wearing the armor anymore. That's a tricky one.

Originally posted by Lord Liaden
Now those circumstances have me a bit confused. Having Bob take control of Joe's armor whenever Joe is mentally debilitated (Ego Drained or Entangled were your examples) is usually a short-term circumstance, which really wouldn't allow for quests by Bob which was one of the examples you gave. I'd suggest making the Accidental Change occur when Joe is faced with situations of great importance to Bob which Bob would want to act on, instead of or in addition to the Ego-affecting conditions. That would let Bob take extended control until whatever task he wanted to accomplish was completed.

Sorry about the confusion. I wasn't trying to imply that Bob would go questing if he took over. What I was trying to convey is that even if Bob has the opportunity to take over Joe's armor, he's restricted from doing so unless there is a driving religious reason for him to do so, such as destroying undead (an abomination to his faith) or preserving the sanctity of the nature. I've pretty much decided to go with an earth-centric faith with the 4 "traditional" elements as key ingredients, hence the armor. But if Joe is just mind-drained by Menton for example, Bob can't really step in because there's no religious reason to do so.

Originally posted by Lord Liaden
The campaign sounds pretty wild, but I'll reserve further comment until you can present your backstory.

I'll post a follow-up for you in the next reply, but it will be long, so I'll have to postpone until tomorrow night. Sleep is calling me. Gotta wrap this up soon. *yawn*

Originally posted by Lord Liaden
What I was thinking of is essentially the "Mind Transferrence" ability from The Ultimate Mentalist: a Mental Major Transform used on Joe to place the mind of Bob into his body. The SFX of this could be that Joe's mind would be submerged, or he could switch places with Bob as the AI; since the AI is essentially impotent, this would be no Limitation on the Transform (as recommended in UM). Bob would gain all of the host body's Powers and all Physical Characteristics, but retain his INT, EGO, and maybe PRE, as well as Skills. Because of the cumulative nature of Transform, and the fact that you don't necessarily want it to take effect immediately, the cost of the Power can be relatively low. You can also define whatevert circumstances you think would "feel" appropriate to break the Transform and restore Joe to control.

Now this is a good idea too. I don't have TUM, unfortunately, so I never really got to read about mental transforms of this nature. It does make sense, though. The transform would "heal" when the original trigger for the transform goes away.

Originally posted by Lord Liaden
As a sample writeup based on Mind Transference, let's say 1D6 Major Transform (15 BP), Based on ECV (+1), Works vs. EGO instead of BODY (+0 in most campaigns, unless BODY tends to be significantly higher or lower than EGO), Fully Invisible (+1) since it doesn't sound like it should be apparent, 0 END unless the AI has an END Reserve for some reason: Active Points 52. If Joe's armor grants him Mental Defense, make the Transform Armor Piercing or Penetrating based on what would be most effective, so AP go to 60.

To this you apply No Range (-1/2) and Only Under Appropriate Conditions (at least -1/2 from your description), bringing the Real Points to 30. Your target would also be a Very Limited group (i.e. just Joe), which would be another -1 making the RP 20. Other Lims could be applied to make the Power more random, such as Activation Roll.

This is a good construction, but I have a question. Since I'm not targeting anyone but the PC, does it really need to be based on ECV? Hitting yourself is pretty much automatic, isn't it? Without the ECV advantage, "Works vs. MD and Ego" would probably then go up to +½, making the active points only 45 and bringing the real points go down to about 15. Not bad for a bit of flavor. I'd make sure he'd get his points worth and still make it challenging for him when it does happen. I'll tie that to the Accidental Change (Possessed by AI follower) and it should make an interesting character.

Thanks again!
Steve

[Lord Liaden]

Originally posted by Xandarr
This is a good construction, but I have a question. Since I'm not targeting anyone but the PC, does it really need to be based on ECV? Hitting yourself is pretty much automatic, isn't it? Without the ECV advantage, "Works vs. MD and Ego" would probably then go up to +½, making the active points only 45 and bringing the real points go down to about 15. Not bad for a bit of flavor. I'd make sure he'd get his points worth and still make it challenging for him when it does happen. I'll tie that to the Accidental Change (Possessed by AI follower) and it should make an interesting character.

Thanks again!
Steve

Well, according to the description of Transform in FREd and in the FAQ, a Mental Transform (which this ability is "officially" based on) is supposed to take the BOECV Advantage - that's why I wrote it this way. You're free to change that interpretation for your campaign, of course, but if you do buy Bob as a Follower for Joe, the actual difference to the points you'd be paying would be minimal.

In any event, it wouldn't really be "hitting yourself" if you think about it: Bob is a separate character from Joe (just written up differently) who is attempting to overcome Joe's will. Hence a mind based attack does sound appropriate, although as always YMMV.