The cost of bases...

[Mithras]

Greeting all. I usually dont write here a lot, but rest assured i read here alot..

However, i have stumbled across a slight problem in my TA campaign now. My players would like to purchase a base (preferable a big tower or perhaps a castle), so far so good.
However, i dont know how much a should take for bases since they are merely mentioned in active pointcost and realpoint cost. So any suggestions to help out a fairly new Hero system GM?

Best regards.

[Edsel]

I am not certain what you are asking so here is some general information. The rules for building bases (costs, etc.) start on page 462 of the 5th Edition Revised rulesbook (known as 5ER).

Even though a character gets 5 base building points for each character point that they donate it can still be costly to build a base. For example if you were to build a 50-foot diameter tower with 5 levels it would be equal to 9817.5 Square Feet of floor space. Just paying for the size alone costs about 30 base points which means that the character's would have to donate 6 Character Points just to buy the empty shell. When you do things like buying a magic lab or adding a ballista to the roof or reinforce the walls with extra DEF and BODY the costs add up.

Fortunately you can always buy disadvantages for the base to help offset some of this cost but the disadvantages are normal value (they don't get a multiplier like donated character points).

I have a set of house rules we are using for base building in my Dark Champions campaign and I have attached it to this posting. It is a different genre than Fantasy Hero but costs involved are similar. This document includes house rules for allowing Player character wealth to add building points and guidelines on how role-playing the base building activities can earn role-playing rewards in the form of base building points.

[Mithras]

Thanks for the word file, however i was wondering if there where anyone who know how much gold one should charge different buildings with, or if there where any way of converting Active/real point into a cost of gold..

I know im asking for a lot, but my players really would like to buy a base with gold and since its recommended in FH that they should buy bases with gold, im all for it..

anyone who could help with that?

Best regards.

[Eosin]

This link has suggestions for building domains (counties/duchies). Somewhere in the huge morass is a well researched guess at the costs associated with construction of massive structures (keeps, motte-n-bailey, fortresses). Make sure you look for the terrain modifier located below it.

[Mithras]

Wow!! thanks Eosin. Exactly what i was looking for.. You have made a grand job on that and for that im grateful..

Best Regards.

[Eosin]

Here is the relevant section.

NOTE: A single gold trade bar (gb) is 1 kilogram or 32 troy ounces of gold worth approximately $20,000. Other trade bars (such as silver) have a higher weight but posses the same monetary value.

BASES
Provinces purchase bases for a variety of reasons. The most common base constructed by a Province is a garrison or a fortification. Bases can also be trade centers, abbeys, and other more permanent constructions. Use the standard construction rules for building bases to construct these fortifications. A domain will need to purchase these items with money.

Fortification Prices
It would take a separate book, more than one in all likelihood, to detail appropriate costs and construction methods. Suffice to say, medieval castles took several years to build and often consumed similar financial resources. They were long laborious affairs and not undertaken lightly.

Construction styles in the Last Dominion vary by culture. The primitive Durazzo still build fortifications using wood and earth while the Vintrian Empire maintains hundreds of fortifications reminiscent of the most sophisticated fortresses and fortified cities built in our own past. To complicate matters further, the remnants of massive fortifications built during the last ages before the wars between the Celestine and the Ennwrathi may still be in use. The great Numerian city of Anvers is one such fortification. However, castles are largely representative of the era known as the High Medieval Ages (1,100 to 1,500 AD).

The lists below are meant to provide examples for the gamemaster. They are not meant to be an exact correlation to medieval construction costs. Time of construction is given as an approximation based on the best guesses that I can find, but numerous factors play into construction delays like wars, weather, plagues, and the site of the location itself. Gamemasters should feel free to modify and further develop construction costs to suit the needs of their campaign. The first section of the list, castle construction, gives the price to build specific types of fortifications. The second list is a modifier to the cost based on the terrain in which it is built.

After a fortification is built, it must still be maintained. Each season the owner must pay XXXX

Castle Construction
Hill Fort: These are crude constructions that use natural terrain to offer at least some protection. Hill forts are made by jamming freshly cut and sharpened wooden poles into the earth to form a palisade. Unless the hill fort has seen frequent use, the interior only provides a place to pitch tents.
Cost: 1 gb Construction Time: 10 days

Fortified Manor: Many feudal lords cannot afford the superior protection offered by the motte and bailey fortifications and instead settle on the fortified manor. Other rural lords may simply long for something more comfortable than the cramped confines of a drafty stone keep, so they construct a defensible home in their province. These small walled compounds only afford protection against raiders and poorly organized trollkin. They are easily overwhelmed by organized forces.
Cost: 10 gb Construction Time: 1 season

Motte and Bailey: The motte (hill) and bailey (enclosure) is the most common form of castle construction in frontier lands. An artificial hill is constructed using local dirt and enclosed with a wall, which is usually made of wood. The enclosure or courtyard is called a bailey. On top of the hill and within the bailey, a wood keep is constructed. The lower portion of the keep is typically buried which makes a smaller second hill and forms the last line of defense. Some motte and bailey keeps are formed by building two adjacent hills, with one being significantly higher. This second hill is accessed from a special gangway extending from the bailey of the first.
Cost: 15 gb Construction Time: 1 season

Stone Keep: These small bastions of military strength offer little in the way of personal amenities with only a handful of rooms. The keep or donjon is the strongest single structure and the central focus of the community. The building may only be accessed from the second or third floor and forces would be besiegers to climb rickety stairways under fire or to construct their own means of entry into the keep. There are few windows to light the interior but plenty of arrow slots to peeper opponents. Above all, the keep is a fortification; other concerns are scuttled by the need to create the structure in a way to enhance its function. Most lords do not live within their keeps, instead the building is used to store military equipment and food stuffs incase of siege.
Cost: 25 gb Construction Time: 2 seasons

Castle: The castle is usually constructed over older motte and bailey fortifications. In addition to the high placement and use of a stone keep castles are buttressed by strong stone walls, an inner and outer bailey, and additional internal buildings constructed from stone. Castles are built with an eye for withstanding siege so they are constructed with wells, internal storage facilities, and they can house huge numbers of defenders if needed.
Cost: 40 gb Construction Time: 2 year

Concentric Castle: These are truly impressive strongholds. The concentric castle has multiple layers of defensive walls, usually three or more, that increase in size as the enemy nears the central keep. Gatehouses, barbicans, murder holes, wall towers, kill zones, and other such advanced defensive structures bolster the strength of the walls until the castles are nearly too strong to consider storming. Concentric castles usually fall to a prolonged siege or treachery rather than being taken by force.
Cost: 80 gb Construction Time: 3 years

Fortress: A fortress is similar to a concentric castle but was not designed to be inhabited under normal circumstances. It lies at the center of a warren of walls complimented with moats, cliffs, waterworks, and perilous gangways. The actual fortress may house a small garrison but travel to and from the inner keep is so arduous and time consuming that supplying anything larger than a few dozen men is itself taxing in manpower.
Cost: 60 gb Construction Time: 3 years

Palace: The palace is one of the ultimate expressions of wealth and security. It is a lavish manor built with multiple wings, each holding a dozen or more rooms. Generally, no expense is spared on a palace; stone is imported from far away locations, the most famous architects are hired, and lavish amenities such as indoor plumbing or private baths are built within. A palace must be staffed with a small army of workers such as gardeners, maids, entertainers, courtiers, and cooks making them just as expensive to maintain as they are to build. A palace does not offer any defensive value and may be quickly overwhelmed despite organized resistance. Despite these drawbacks, the palace is regarded as being essential to any lord greater than a provincial lord. Anything less ostentatious is seen as a sign of weakness or poverty.
Cost: 70 gb Construction Time: 2 years

Walled City: This urban zone has erected defensive walls to deter invaders. Nearly all towns possess walls of varying effectiveness. The cost of walls is dependant on height, length, and construction. The average cost for a small town is 30-50 gb with the assumption that the wall is constructed as cheaply as possible.
Cost: Varies Construction Time: 1 year or more

Fortified City: Many cities possess walls that provide token resistance against invaders but few cities are truly fortified. The massive cost in coin, manpower, and time ensure that only the most powerful kings can afford to undertake a project of such magnitude. Less than a dozen fortified cities are found on Roen and these are located at sites of such strategic importance that they cannot afford to be lost. Fortified cities are built using multiple walls, multiple internal bastions, protected gatehouses, and funnels that shunt invaders into kill zones located throughout the city. Construction is regulated to deny the opposition any form of cover or the ability to quickly design a counter-fortress and to ensure that an advancing enemy is nearly always subject to arrow or siege weapon fire.
Cost: 300 gb Construction Time: 10 years

Pricing Adjustments
Mountainous Castles: The cost of fortifications constructed on remote pinnacles that are poorly accessed is four times the base value. Construction takes three times as long. Less surly locations may cost significantly less. Mountainous castles can humble an invading force in a way that few other structures can.

Watery Castles: These castles are typically built on an island or a peninsula and may only be approached on one side by land (though it may be surrounded by water). Massive walls are built right down to, or even in, the waterline to prevent naval assault. Concentric castles are the favored design for a stronghold incorporating a body of water into its defense. In the case of peninsula castles, wide canals are created across the landward face with select bridging points protected by barbicans, which are themselves under protective fire from the first wall. Watery castles cost thee times as much to build but only take slightly longer to build than standard unless the castle ground must be shored up to prevent flooding.

Harbor Castles: These high castles protect ports and the cities associated with them. The harbor castle is strategically placed to punish uninvited maritime traffic but those same needs often place it in a vulnerable position for a landward assault. Many cities build small harbor fortifications to defend against a naval invasion but use other fortifications as their main defensive strongholds. Harbor castles have a standard cost and construction time.

City Castles: The city castle is often called a bastion or a garrison and it provides protection from invading armies and, just as importantly, from unruly inhabitants. The urban garrison has needs that are unique to its environment including ready accessibility, high traffic volumes, and multiple sally points. Construction within a city takes far less time than rural construction but it is also significantly more expensive due to strong guilds. The cost is double the standard.

[Eosin]

Wow!! thanks Eosin. Exactly what i was looking for.. You have made a grand job on that and for that im grateful..

Best Regards.

Thanks.

[Krieghandt]

Monetary wise, REAL expensive. If they were to 'aquirer' one, then I would look at how many followers/henchmen the keep would provide. If getting money is the campaign motivator, make it a money pit as well. If you dont want to deal with finances, make sure it makes enough to support the characters. To be honest, a base is usually a GM plot device, so build it, then tell the players what its going to cost. If it needs to be cheaper, add some plot hooks (disads) on it.
Krieghandt

[Mithras]

Thanks for the ideas Krieghandt.. Rest assured that there will plenty of adventures hooks on the base they will purchase.. I will place it in Keldravia, rather close to Valicia, so they will be right between 2 great armies sooner or later when war will occur between them (in my campaign it will come to war between them)

[Thia Halmades]

All your base are belong to us.


What?


Hero is a strange bird, since most folk automatically assume that points need to be spent on everything, whereas in d20, gold=points, effectively. Looked at through that lens, their both variations on wealth management, you just have much more fine control in HERO than you do in d20. You can allow them to pay gold for the base, but where are they going to find it all? Further, how is your party structured? Are you giving out magick items and making them all Independent? Are they selling things for Gold? Where does that much gold come from? Who's minting it?

Just curious.

[Rapier]

Bases can really cost. For a five or six person team you are probably gonna need about 10 - 20 points donated per character.

These don't have to be given up all at once. You can drag them out a bit at a time (everyone donates 5 up front and 1xp per night thereafter until paid up).

You are playing FH. Not everything has to necessarily cost only points. I would consider allowing my players to defray a portion of the cost with cash. How much would all depend on the exchange rate. It even makes kind of sense. In a FH world, people are going to want to be paid in some kind of manner that they can use to put food on the table...and CPs aren't it.

Thinking on it. I think I would require the players to spend some cash to build, buy or outfit a base.

[Thia Halmades]

Agreed - which is why I asked about the source of funds (SOF as we bankers say). CP doesn't put food on the table, but then, how much GP do you charge? If you (like me) use a Silver based economy, how much Gold does it cost to hire a contractor, order supplies, ship those supplies (no, folks, the stones don't magically appear there) pay for the labor, additional parts, timber, and so on? It takes six months to build a HOUSE. A 1200 SQUARE FOOT HOUSE. SIX. FREAKING. MONTHS. Unless you're on Extreme Makeover Home Edition, you're going to be at this a while.

And people don't work 24/7. They need rest, or they burn out. Also, medical treatment in the middle ages was crap. You're going to lose workers to disease, attrition, injury, and so on. No workers comp (or soup) for you!

I could go on like this, but bear in mind, I run a pretty realism-heavy campaign. I don't look at history, I look at common sense. Stones & Timber need gotten. Professionals need contracted. Then you'll need to install a garrison of forces to hold your castle so it doesn't get ruined while you're out adventuring. It's an incredible money sink. Things to think on.

[Mithras]

Oh, well i run a more High Fantasy game Thia Halmades. But your input are greatly valued of course.

However, i feel it does not feel good (and the good book says that in heroic campaign bases, weapons and such are bought with monetary resources - in this case Gold) to force the player to pay points/xp in this heroic campaign.

However it was rough to find out how much some buildings would cost, but thanks to Eosin my life got easier..

I do know how long time things takes (and took way back in history) to build, but thats what the "high" in high fantasy takes care of..

I greatly appretiate every input..

Best regards.

[prestidigitator]

I have rather successfully used a pricing scheme that calculates the base cost of equipment on the Active Points and/or Real Cost of the equipment, and then varies it based upon the availability of materials and crafting skills and such. It really has to be done independently for each campaign setting, though, as economics, level of magic (High Magic can drive down the cost of normal equipment because of alternate magical solutions) and such vary a LOT from game to game and place to place.

I've found that a relationship that goes something like this works okay for the base cost (before things like material and skill availability are factored in):

EDIT: INCORRECT. See posts below.

baseCost = M*2^[(A*R-B)/C]

M - Cost of baseline equipment: something with A*R = B
A - Active Points
R - Real Cost
B - Baseline Active Points and Real Cost; A*R for your baseline piece of equipment that costs M
C - A divider. If cost is doubled for every +20 Active Points or every +5 Real Cost, then C = 20*5 = 100

I've really only used this for personal equipment, but some variation might work for bases and vehicles.

[Thia Halmades]

Ooo... Algebra. Mr. Presto? Mr. Presto! MR. PRESTO!!

Yes, Thia, what is it?

Could you post an example on the board, Mr. Presto? I only grasp mechanics in motion!