Hero 4th books vs. Hero 5th books

**Chuk** · Feb 18th, '03, 02:09 PM

For people who have them both, how would you rate the 4th edition vs. 5th edition versions of:

The Ultimate Martial Artist?
Bestiary?
Ninja Hero?

Or any other books. I really like the 5th edition main rule book and I'm really looking forward to picking up Star Hero, but I seem to be doing okay with 4th ed versions of all of the above. (Note: I seem to recall reading that NH is a campaign setting rather than just a 5th edition version of the other one -- I guess I just need comparisons of the setting material, then.)

***Derek Hiemforth*** · Feb 18th, '03, 02:39 PM

5th Edition Ultimate Martial Artist is of similar quality to 4th(unsurprising, since it's the same author). It's more focussed on crunchy martial arts rules goodness since it doesn't have to contain any sample campaign material. There are a fair number of new options in it. If martial artists play much of a role in your games, I definitely recommend it.

The 5th Edition Hero System Bestiary is vastly improved over 4th. No comparison. The write-ups are more extensive and useful, the art is much better... it's just a much better product overall.

5th Edition Ninja Hero is probably more useful to running martial arts games than 4th was, simply because there's so much more material in it. The 4th Edition book was shorter, and then on top of that, it had to contain all the martial arts rules stuff that's now split out into The Ultimate Martial Artist. So the new Ninja Hero probably has five times as much genre material in it. And Michael Surbrook clearly knows his stuff. Aaron Allston is a tough act to follow, but Susano doesn't suffer in the comparison, IMO. And again, better art, better production values, etc. etc.

**Toadmaster** · Feb 18th, '03, 03:03 PM

The old Beastiary was hardly worth the money, the 5th beastiary is a great resource and I'd say is mandatory if you have any plans on using creatures normal or fantastic.

UMA is very well done, but I never had the old one so I can't compare. I have the old Ninja HERO and the new one has much more material, I'm not a huge fan of the genre but I like what I've seen of the 5th NH so far.

StarHero is awesome, if the 5th Fantasy HERO compares it will make the old FH seem like trash and I thought the old FH was very well done.

I have just bought the Ultimate Vehicle and from what I've seen I am very happy. Something else I've noticed is that when DOJ puts out a 5th Edition product it is not only very well done, it is all new material, not just an edited version of the 4th ed stuff, this is nice becasue it is all new and because it does not make the 4th ed stuff completely obsolete.

**GradonSilverton** · Feb 18th, '03, 04:42 PM

New research seems to have been put into 5th UMA. Is it much better? Cant really say, but it accomplishes the updates as needed.

Ninja Hero i haven't looked through yet (as yet to buy it, since I'm supprised it was published again with the overall usefullness of UMA...yes I know its a campaign book, but perhaps an extra chapeter or 2 in UMA would have sufficed).

Dont have the old Bestiary so I cant speak on this one.

**Checkmate** · Feb 18th, '03, 06:02 PM

The old Ninja Hero was turned into UMA and the new Ninja Hero is well new. It has everything you need for running Anime/Wuxia/Video Game Martial Arts. I don't particularly care for those Genres but the book is very well written and the art is for the most part top notch (again I don't like anime, so the anime art didn't appeal to me)

The New UMA vs. 4th UMA. If you are on a budget, don't buy the new one. It duplicates a lot of the old stuff. Save this for when you have all the books you want and have some extra cash to burn. It's not that it is a bad book, it is awesome, but the 4th UMA was awesome too and there isn't enough new stuff in the 5th ed to get it right away.

I completely agree with everything that was said about the bestiaries.

Hope this helps

**Chuk** · Feb 19th, '03, 08:23 AM

Looks like I only need Bestiary, then (and Star Hero, and Fantasy Hero, and maybe Ninja Hero then even though I don't really play Ninja games and then the Resource Kit and then CKC or whatever it's called and then the Champions Genre book and then Fantasy Hero and the Kandris Seal and the Terran Empire book and...

**Monolith** · Feb 19th, '03, 08:26 AM

Originally posted by Chuk
Looks like I only need Bestiary, then (and Star Hero, and Fantasy Hero, and maybe Ninja Hero then even though I don't really play Ninja games and then the Resource Kit and then CKC or whatever it's called and then the Champions Genre book and then Fantasy Hero and the Kandris Seal and the Terran Empire book and...

Yeah, so you had better get all that stuff bought right away!

**Storn** · Feb 19th, '03, 08:55 AM

Collect them All!

**Ghost Archer** · Feb 19th, '03, 02:35 PM

Gotta admit I've bought all of them, except the new Ninja Hero and only because my FLGS doesn't have it yet.
UMA, love it but about the same as 4th.

Bestiary, vast improvement over 4th.

Ninja Hero, no comment.

But I do have comments of a few other things.

Champions Universe 5th, hated it, but probably because I was so used to the 4th version and they changed so damn much.

Champions, hated it, too basic for someone running a 21 year long campaign. Again, I HAVE been playing 21 years but for a new player or GM, the book is fabulous, especially the Quick Superhuman Generator.

Star Hero, loved it but I am comparing it to the ancient Star Hero from like 1984. Of course, if I ever run a sci fi campaign I may love it more.

Now, CKC. This, I believe, is the best thing Hero has done in a very long time. The characters have gone from cardboard cut outs to full figured villains, something I have always had to do with every Hero published character I have used. Although the extra 100 points in base and the reduction in disads helps. It allows everyone to round out a character without having to surrender powers.

**tenebre** · Feb 20th, '03, 04:30 AM

ok being that i have serious OCD issues, i have been gettign every edition of every book just for the hell of it.

The 5th edition bokos are extremely well thought out and put together, with IMHO not a space wasted.

the 4the dition stuff is good but seemed to be a little repetition in some areas.

I agree with an earlier posters comment about the new champions book. I have not been running champions for 21 years though. In fact until recently i had not run champions since 1989. So i loved the 5th edition champions. But he has a point.

allt hat said. Every edition of any champions books are IMO the best gaming material on the market. At one point i owned every DnD book ever made Sold them due to a divorce. But literally hunders of those books were just useless.

I can use every single champions/hero book i have for something.

**AlHazred** · Feb 20th, '03, 04:54 AM

I own the 4th edition and 5th edition versions of UMA, NH, SH, Bestiary, and Champs U.

I agree with the general consensus on UMA and NH, so I won't go into depth. The new ones rock.

The old Bestiary was hit-and-miss when it came to creature writeups. Some of them didn't have a lot of abilities the creature should have had. The math was wrong on a lot of them. As far as production values go... If you have the 4th edition Bestiary, look at the stats block of the Ghoul. Looks a little odd, don't it? Now, turn back one or two pages (don't have my book in front of me) and look at the same location on the right-hand page for the stats block of the Faerie. Looks similar, huh? That's the kind of production values you can find throughout the book. A good concept, but poorly executed, in my opinion.

The new Bestiary is very well done. They really didn't just cut-and-paste material. All of the creatures were obviously gone over and checked versus each other for consistency. The template system is well-executed. The summary in the back is handy (brought to mind the summary section of the old D&D 1st Edition Monster Manual). Options presented in a consistent fashion. A great book overall.

The 4th edition Star Hero was a terrible product. I can't think about it without cringing. Dumbass assumptions, bad ideas, poorly developed background... The list just goes on and on and on...

The new Star Hero is another great supplement. I'll admit I was worried they were going for that before Fantasy Hero, but it's really well done. I'll be actually using the material, which is not something I thought would happen. Definitely unique among Gaming Products in the depth of coverage on topics most such supplement don't discuss. Highest grade.

Hope that helps.

**Chuk** · Feb 20th, '03, 08:15 AM

Originally posted by AlHazred

The 4th edition Star Hero was a terrible product. I can't think about it without cringing. Dumbass assumptions, bad ideas, poorly developed background... The list just goes on and on and on...

There was a 4th edition Star Hero?!? That above description sure matches the standalone (as in, came with all the rules and had its own alien power system) 1st edition Star Hero. I hadn't heard there was one for 4th...

***Derek Hiemforth*** · Feb 20th, '03, 10:21 AM

No, there was no Star Hero for 4th Edition. The only Star Hero prior to the current one was a standalone game (in the style of Danger International or Justice, Inc.) that would have corresponded to the 3rd Edition of the system rules. It was the last major book to be published before 4th Edition was released, which drastically affected its usefulness, IMO. You bought the book, and then it was obsolete just a couple of months later.

**AlHazred** · Feb 20th, '03, 11:39 AM

Originally posted by Derek Hiemforth
No, there was no Star Hero for 4th Edition. The only Star Hero prior to the current one was a standalone game (in the style of Danger International or Justice, Inc.) that would have corresponded to the 3rd Edition of the system rules. It was the last major book to be published before 4th Edition was released, which drastically affected its usefulness, IMO. You bought the book, and then it was obsolete just a couple of months later.

Actually, it was mostly compatible with 4th edition Hero. That's why I made the mistake. Although, thankfully, some of the more clunky rules did not make the cut into Hero 4th.

**BasilDrag** · Feb 22nd, '03, 03:47 PM

Originally posted by Derek Hiemforth
No, there was no Star Hero for 4th Edition. The only Star Hero prior to the current one was a standalone game (in the style of Danger International or Justice, Inc.) that would have corresponded to the 3rd Edition of the system rules. It was the last major book to be published before 4th Edition was released, which drastically affected its usefulness, IMO. You bought the book, and then it was obsolete just a couple of months later.

I got the BBB not long after it came out, and immediately signed up for Adventurers Club. At that point, AC had ads for Star Hero. I tried to get it; I tried every bleeding way possible to get it. It was out of print, sold out, and gone.

I waiting all through the "BBB era" for a reprint or a new edition, or something. It never happened.

Then I hear about 5th ed. "Darn," I said to myself, "more waiting for Star Hero---I mean, they're going to do Champions first, and then Fantasy Hero--oh, and Dark Champs, 'cause Long is one of the owners. And then they'll do.... And so, no Star Hero." I was utterly bummed; I wasn't even sure Star Hero would get done at all.

So, what happens? Champions, then Ninja and Star Heroes almost together. Surprised the heck out of me.

Pleased, but surprised.