A Shock Staff

[Ben Seeman]

Basically it's a no-ranged electrical EB focused on a staff. However, if the user doesn't have on protective gloves, he too will suffer the damage of the strike. With the gloves on, he can hack away to his hearts content.

How would you guys write up the Side Effect for this weapon?

[Monolith]

I would write it up as follows:

17 Shock Staff: Energy Blast 8d6 (vs. ED), Penetrating (+1/2) (60 Active Points); OAF (-1), Extreme Side Effects (Side Effect always occurs when not wearing protective gloves -3/4), 12 Charges (-1/4), No Range -1/2

[Chaosliege]

Originally posted by Monolith
I would write it up as follows:

17 Shock Staff: Energy Blast 8d6 (vs. ED), Penetrating (+1/2) (60 Active Points); OAF (-1), Extreme Side Effects (Side Effect always occurs when not wearing protective gloves -3/4), 12 Charges (-1/4), No Range -1/2

I personaly would cut the side effects limitation at least in half, if not down to 1/4. This is going to be a very rare side effect. And if the idea is to make it so that if the staff is taken away and used on you, the other guy gets hit, then it would be an advantage to have the side effects(witch would almost never effect you and always effect the guy that stole your staff). Granted in the above ex. the staff is not independant, and therefore could not be used by anyone else, but even in that case, I wouldn't go higher than -1/2. If you were to make it independant, then the side effect becomes a +1/2 advantage. Just my opinion.

[Delthrien]

I thought the focus was defined as personal (or not) when purchased. IIRC, Independent merely means that if the focus is taken it's gone (along with the character points used to build it...) and can't be replaced short of taking it back or buying it again with XPs gained through play.

Have I missed something?

Charlie

[Monolith]

The value of the limitation is based entire on the amount of damage it does. In the example I wrote above, the shock staff will do full damage (8d6 Pen) to the person using it. That is a -1 Limitation. Then there is a 1/4 modifier due to the fact that it only works if the person is not wearing protective gloves. This leaves a Limitation value of -3/4. This is right out of FREd.

If you wanted the weapon to do 1/2 damage (4d6 Pen) to the person holding it when not wearing gloves that would end up being a -1/4 Limitation (-1/2+1/4=-1/4).

[Monolith]

Originally posted by Delthrien
I thought the focus was defined as personal (or not) when purchased. IIRC, Independent merely means that if the focus is taken it's gone (along with the character points used to build it...) and can't be replaced short of taking it back or buying it again with XPs gained through play.

Have I missed something?

Charlie

No, you are correct. Independent has nothing to do with whether or not someone else can use your Focus. That is determined by the Personal or Universal status of the Focus.

[Tom McCarthy]

I have to concur with the above. The side effect (effectively a dmaage shield for the focus) is as likely to help you when disarmed as burn you.

Maybe take the full value for the limitation Side Effect, but then buy it off through IIF gloves ? At least do the math on that to indicate a reasonable lowered cost for the limited side effect.

[Chaosliege]

Originally posted by Delthrien
I thought the focus was defined as personal (or not) when purchased. IIRC, Independent merely means that if the focus is taken it's gone (along with the character points used to build it...) and can't be replaced short of taking it back or buying it again with XPs gained through play.

Have I missed something?

Charlie

That is posible. I haven't ever used an independant focus. I don't like them. But my point is still that if the staff is intended to be safe for the purchaser in all but the most remote sercomstances( when is the hero not going to have the gloves on, and if the hero doesn't have the gloves on, why would he use the staff). And at the same time does damage to someone who is able to take it away and use it on him, this is an advantage not a limitation. Again, this depends intirely on how the concept is suposed to be, witch Ben didn't elaborate on. Even if the staff is a personal focus and can only be used by the character, I wouldn't allow this limitation to be worth more than 1/2. probably 1/4. Because it would just never come up.

[Monolith]

Originally posted by Chaosliege
But my point is still that if the staff is intended to be safe for the purchaser in all but the most remote sercomstances( when is the hero not going to have the gloves on, and if the hero doesn't have the gloves on, why would he use the staff).

I believe the point is that when you are giving a modifier to a power it is supposed to effect the character occasionally. In this instance there is a 1/4 conditional modifier applied to the Side Effect, so when I open up my copy of FREd I see that a 1/4 modifier should affect the character about a quarter of the time. That means in about one in every four sessions something is going to occur which forces the character to either use the shock staff and take damage, or be forced to not use it so as to not take damage. One out of four does not seem to bad to me.

It is not a question of the character saying: I am never taking the gloves off. It is a question of the GM putting the character into situations where he cannot use his gloves (perhaps they have been destroyed, or they are wet and will not insulate, etc). The GM inforces the limitation values, not the players. If it were up to the players they would never take off their bullet-proof vests.

[Talon]

Monolith,

The logic you are using seems to be ignoring the offensive potential of this Side Effect, as mentioned above. IMO it's more likely that a foe would get zapped trying to use the Side Effect than it would be for the hero to be without his gloves.

Now, if the gloves are a serious restriction on the character (they're bulky, they interfere with a Secret ID, etc.), then a straight Side Effect approach seems more reasonable. But if not, then I would argue that the GM should modify the Side Effect guidelines and reduce the value of the Side Effect, and possibly even require a Triggered power to be added to the staff (part of a Multipower, hopefully). If it were patently obvious to observers that the staff was dangerous, and that the user was being protected only because he was wearing protective gloves, then just a Side Effect would probably be OK.

[Monolith]

Originally posted by Geoff Speare
The logic you are using seems to be ignoring the offensive potential of this Side Effect, as mentioned above. IMO it's more likely that a foe would get zapped trying to use the Side Effect than it would be for the hero to be without his gloves.

You are extrapulating a lot from Ben's single sentence. All he says is required is protective gloves. That could be any character who has a force field, or has focused armor, or someone just wearing gloves. That fact that some people might pick it up and get hurt is just what might happen.

All focuses are unknown until you see them used. If you have never seen seen a pistol before, the fact that someone can kill someone with it is quite a shock. After you see someone get shot with the gun you know what it does. How many movies have you seen where an unsuspecting person is pointing a pistol at himself because he does not know it can kill him?

By the same token, someone who has never seen the Shock Staff before might pick it up and hurt himself with it, but after the character knows it can hurt him he takes steps to make sure it does not. The SFX could also be that it surrounds the hand with crackling energy, so any reasonably intelligent person can discern that it would be dangerous to touch.

You might be assuming that a villain will pick up the staff and be shocked by it. I am assuming that most villains are smart enough to know it will hurt them, and only the most intellectually limited people (Grond, Ogre, etc) will actually be surprised that the staff hurt them instead of the hero.

[Talon]

I agree both scenarios are possible. My experience as GM is that if you don't spell it out in advance, there is likely to be a clash during the session when the player's idea differs from the GM's idea in a way that affects the game.

Since special effects were not specified, it's entirely reasonable for the player to make the Side Effect subtle -- but if that's the case, I as GM need to know about it, which was the point of my comments. I prefer to err on the side of caution, since if I say "sure, it's a -3/4 Limitation", the assumptions made in that call might come back to bite me later.

Guess we need to hear more from Ben.

[Keneton]

When a person disarms a weapon they do not take damage from the weapon. I think this supports Monolith's position. Now a takeawy would result in damage in this case.

Writing it up as a damage shiel with a partail limitation on personal immunity may also work.

[MisterVimes]

Originally posted by Keneton
When a person disarms a weapon they do not take damage from the weapon. I think this supports Monolith's position. Now a takeawy would result in damage in this case.

Writing it up as a damage shiel with a partail limitation on personal immunity may also work.

Or Personal Immunity as a Naked Advantage with the limitation OIF: Gloves.

[Ben Seeman]

This is good stuff, guys...

Another question, and this is something that has troubled me on a lot of aspects of character creation... what determines what an EXTREME side effect is as upposed to a major or minor effect? Does extreme to full damage, major do half damage and minor do one-quarter damage? I can't find anywhere in FREd where that is defined.

Let me show you waht I first came up with to help clarify wehat I'm looking for. Bear in mind that this is not a personal weapon being bought with character points in a Champions campaign. It is for Star Hero.

This two-handed weapon delivers a powerful electric charge when striking an enemy. Special protecting gloves need to be worn so that the wielder of the staff does not take damage from the jolt. It requires two hands to brandish and the user needs to have sufficent strength to deliver a powerful enough blow to activate the charge.

EB 6d6 (vs. ED), Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2) (45 Active Points); OAF (-1), Side Effects, Side Effect always occurs when not wearing protective gloves (-?), STR Minimum (15; -3/4), No Range (-1/2) Total cost: ?? points