Balancing Magic Use

[Tywyll]

Hey,

Was wondering how people balanced magic use in more High Fantasy style settings.

I'm running a game currently and I've set up casters to get spells at RC divided by 5. What can I say, I like spell casters to be flexible. Also, they cast spells from an End Reserve, typically with a fairly large REC, but it only recovers once every 6 hours (so a fully drained caster could regenerate all his 'mana' in one day, and can't spend too much in a fight or risk being 'empty' when he needs it).

I've tried to balance defensive spells so that they either have negatives (things like Earth Skins though they last long have actual weight and cost a x2-x3, and FF tend to be high protection but cost END either every phase or every turn).

I'm just trying to stare into my Crystal Ball and see how non-casters will develop alongside casters and whether it will end up that casters completely overshadow things or not.

Anyone else find this a concern in a long term game?

[Curufea]

I have a number of organisations controlling magic use to keep it balanced.
The biggest one is The Church which is highly regimented and polices all use of magic.
Then you have the Alchemist Guild which gets license from The Church
Finally there are the various magic secret societies that have their own rules and try not to be noticed by The Church.

I also regulate magic with weather. Nearly all spells operate from tapping ley lines - and those lines are subject to various magical weather effects. The game mechanic is - all spells must cost endurance. The character doesn't pay the endurance cost - it comes from the ley lines. If they can't tap a ley line for some reason, and they are skilled enough, they could use personal endurance, but it costs at least double.

[Killer Shrike]

Magic System Control Factors

[Thia Halmades]

That depends.

In d20, you have casters who essentially unlimited in what they can do, however, every other character type must have equipment to balance them out and keep them competitive. This is what I call a 'wealth management system.' You WILL have a problem long term, so says the d20 model, and that's just the way that's going to go.

Among the things I would do is borrow heavily from d20; in that system, the wizards don't "pay for" spells because they can a) only learn spells up to their level, and b) learning a spell requires a skill roll. You can adopt this in any number of ways.

My current magic system design is ... fairly complicated. Simply put, I lifted d20 directly, then fixed all the broken crap. F'rinstance.

Let's say you're going to join my campaign and you want to play a caster. I give you the list of the Major, Minor and Lesser Arcana. You are free to pick & choose as you see fit. You can opt out of certain Arcana by taking a Physical Limitation, "Cannot Cast Necromancy Spells" and that would be worth 20, 15 or 10 points depending on the Arcana class itself (Major, Minor, Lesser). With me so far? Bully. Now then.

You start to dev your character and you decide you're going to really focus on being a Conjurer. Again, bully. That's no sweat, you start sinking skill points in the Major Arcana of Conjuration. Then you purchase your IVPP (InVariable Power Pool). It's a strictly limited framework which allows you to add spells at no cost, but carries heavy limitations, many of which I borrowed from Killer Shrike initially before I'd really wrapped my skull around what I was doing. The IVPP keeps you from ever spending XP to learn new spells - you just have to make a skill roll when you find the appropriate scroll, assuming you have the appropriate school. Because that part of d20 made sense, although it's rarely enforced.

All spells consume a Charge (from your IVPP - if you have a 30 point VPP, you can cast up to your Real Cost x2 per day - so 60 Real Points total). All spells must be prepped in advance. Casting a spell requires a Skill Roll from the appropriate Arcana, using the standard 1:10 skill roll rules, then modified for conditions (taking fire, rocking ship, on horseback, etc.)

This system pretty keeps mages in check; only the absurdly powerful are going to be truly talented in more than two or three Arcana at any time. The skill rolls keep fizzle an option, and the IVPP keeps them from running amok (and it only recharges after a full night's rest).

That's the core system I'm working with now. Does that help at all?

[Blue Jogger]

Hey,
Was wondering how people balanced magic use in more High Fantasy style settings.

I balance it with the fact that my magic system is free but usually has a pretty big hidden cost (Skill Roll and Side Effects!). So, to combat that, most people either spend points in learning how to do magic safely (i.e. mage), or they learn lesser magic which isn't so dangerous, but costs 1-for-1.

[LordGhee]

what balance, Gandalf could fight a balrog.

Generally we let the players build the magic they want, in the three 150 pt games none of the mu overly powered the game (everything form a few powers to vpps)

Lord Ghee

[Killer Shrike]

Hey,

Was wondering how people balanced magic use in more High Fantasy style settings.

I'm running a game currently and I've set up casters to get spells at RC divided by 5. What can I say, I like spell casters to be flexible. Also, they cast spells from an End Reserve, typically with a fairly large REC, but it only recovers once every 6 hours (so a fully drained caster could regenerate all his 'mana' in one day, and can't spend too much in a fight or risk being 'empty' when he needs it).

I've tried to balance defensive spells so that they either have negatives (things like Earth Skins though they last long have actual weight and cost a x2-x3, and FF tend to be high protection but cost END either every phase or every turn).

I'm just trying to stare into my Crystal Ball and see how non-casters will develop alongside casters and whether it will end up that casters completely overshadow things or not.

Anyone else find this a concern in a long term game?

Yes and No.

If you don't allow the equivalent of exceptional "heroic" abilities or "super skills" then yeah, characters that have no unusual abilities are not going to be very competitive to characters that are built around having them.

Also, if you don't have much in the way of magic items usable by non magic users, similar results. Combine a lack of both, and sure magic users will dominate.

But then that wouldnt really bea HIGH Fantasy, now would it?


From my (vast) experience in the realm of High Fantasy, the main challenge powerful non magic users have as a whole is dealing with typical magic user evasions, such as Invisibility and Flight, particularly when several are used in conjunction. Other than that, they compete by being uber competant at whatever it is that they do.

For some sample characters, check out the Ptolus conversion Im currently working on PtolusHERO or some of my old PC's: Ollix and Jaram Glaive or some of the characters from my San'Dora campaign The Hooded Man and Ergal Sharlia

[bigdamnhero]

I'm running a game currently and I've set up casters to get spells at RC divided by 5. What can I say, I like spell casters to be flexible.

I've done that too, and never had a problem with it. It makes FH feel less like Champions IMHO if the casters have a wide variety of spells to choose from rather than a handful of uber-spells.

Frameworks are another way to increase flexibility without increasing overall power level. The last FH game I played in we all had VPPs, but all spells had to be learned in game, as well as GM-approved. You can spend XP to increase your pool, but the spells themselves don't get more powerful until/unless you can use Spell Research skill to re-design the spell accordingly.

I'm just trying to stare into my Crystal Ball and see how non-casters will develop alongside casters and whether it will end up that casters completely overshadow things or not.

If you're not careful, yes this can happen. The trick, as others have suggested, is 1) put limitations on magic that make it harder to use in certain circumstances, and 2) make sure the non-casters get something to play with as well, whether it's magic items or non-spell abilities built as powers.

[Tywyll]

Hey guys,

I appreciate the responses. It hasn't exactly hit on what I meant.

My magic system is limited in many of the ways that KS mentioned in his document. However, I don't know if those limits are enough in the long term, when a Wizard can 'easily' get his hands on a 4d6 RKA (by easily I mean cheaply, especially at /5 cost) what does the fighter do that compensates, short of give him tons of magic goodies?

[CraterMaker]

Martial Arts can be a great power booster for the non-Mage..
With a few DC's, they can get to the 4d6 KA level pretty easy..

Or just let them buy heroic abilities at Points/5...

-CraterMaker

[Thia Halmades]

Sword Tricks can boost very easily through the intelligent application of CSLs. Remember that in a heroic setting it's a 2:1 ratio - so it takes two Damage CSLs to equal ONE Killing Attack DC. In this regard, you can easily allow people to develop up to 4d6 Killing, and if they want to spend the CSLs to raise their magic, hey, they can. Just make sure you've put together a 'balanced' magic system that won't break under stress.

[Killer Shrike]

Hey guys,

I appreciate the responses. It hasn't exactly hit on what I meant.

My magic system is limited in many of the ways that KS mentioned in his document. However, I don't know if those limits are enough in the long term, when a Wizard can 'easily' get his hands on a 4d6 RKA (by easily I mean cheaply, especially at /5 cost) what does the fighter do that compensates, short of give him tons of magic goodies?

At 1/5th cost I predict that you will experience some play balance issues, particularly as the campaign ramps into higher play levels, unless the Magic System is highly controlled.

That's one of the reasons I don't like the divisor method of Magic System design.

Another reason I don't like it is that its such a generic approach it is more difficult to have Magic Systems with differing flavors.

If you tell us some details about your intended campaign power level, and the Magic System you plan to use we could be more helpful.

Also, you might find this page on my site useful to organize your thoughts on your campaign: Paradigm Worksheet; and here are some Sample Paradigms as comparison points.

[Black Rose]

Possible things to limit magic overpowering the game:

Make sure to have interesting non-magical abilities for the other guys to play with. Thief-y types need cool dodges and skulking tricks, maybe some nifty knife moves. Fighters need spiffy combat tricks. Everyone can use cool side bits, like animal followers, or lotsa contacts. Remember too, it's not all fighting; depending on the setting, you can give the "other guys" perks (not necessarily "Perks") that will shine just as brightly as any spell.

Don't let the mages have spells willy-nilly, and definitely don't let them "have" anything more powerful than anyone else; that sort of thing is always carefully given at your discretion. I could be wrong, but I'd say the best bet is to make sure that, in every direct one-to-one comparison of mage-to-"other guys", the mage comes up just a little bit short. It doesn't have to be in total power, but the mage shouldn't do as much damage as the fighter unless it costs him somewhere else (time, END, Skill Roll, material components, whatever), nor should he be able to skulk as well as the thief, etc etc etc. Remember, the mage is (usually) the toolbox guy, the generalist; fighters whale on the baddies, thieves backstab and pick locks, and clerics heal. Mages do what they can't do, or help them do their jobs a little easier.

[CUnknown]

In my games, it tends to be the other way around--Fighters are more powerful than Mages (at least at low point values). One of the main reasons is that Fighters can just pick up a bow to get that 2d6 RKA for a 1-pt weapon familiarity. Mages need to pay -points- for the same thing (I don't do the /3 or /5 rule), so Fighters start off with a huge edge, at least when it comes to raw damage dealing.

4d6 RKA? I just wouldn't allow a beginning character to start off with a spell that powerful, that does sound very unbalancing. Make him pay his dues, starting with a 2d6 RKA first and have him build it up over the course of play.. maybe never even getting to 4d6, that sounds amazingly powerful.

[Killer Shrike]

Everything in the HERO System is relative. The "power" of a 4d6 K attack can't be evaluated in a vacuum; it's only meaningful within the context of what is typical in a given campaign.