Wizard's immunity to the magical SFX they use

[Robyn]

Here's the story: wizards are immune (invulnerable, unaffected by, pick your favorite term ) to magic that has the same "source" as their own magic.

Here are the mechanics: mandatory Limitations on all their own spells to save points by "cannot affect other wizards who use same SFX", or Personal Immunity for each spell (I'm not quite sure how this would work out).

Here's the question: by preference or experience, how would you handle this or recommend another GM to handle it?

[Hugh Neilson]

I'd go the personal immunity result. All attack spells have it and, by campaign ground rule, the immunity extends to all spells using the same effect.

Magic will cost a little more, but you're getting a defense from other magic with it, so it seems reasonable.

[McCoy]

I think I'd probably go with the personal immunity, and handwave that if you have personal imminity to your own spells, you have immunity to other wizards of the same "school."

IIRC when I did Cyclops and Havok I used a 3 point Life Support immunity for them to be immune to each other's powers.

[Lucius]

One of these two:

Both. Have each spell have the Personal Immunity Advantage, and a Limitation "No Effect on Wizards of the Same Order/School/SFX Source/whatever."

Neither. Because the advantage and limitation cancel out so to speak, make it a campaign ground rule that magicians can't be effected by spells of a type they know.

Just realize that if there are no restrictions on learning magic, lots of characters will want to learn one small spell from each school so as to get immunity to the lot...


Hm, come to think of it, maybe making them pay for the advantage is the way to go.

Lucius Alexander

The palindromedary observes that one thing Lucius seems sure of is that it's not a legitimate Limitation - but give him time, he'll probably talk himself around to that too...

[Killer Shrike]

Its a bad idea for most Magic Systems. Because one wizard can launch a magic missle is not a good justification for that wizard to be immune to other wizards magic missiles, for instance.

Generally speaking having spellcasters pay for (either in points or other resources such as VPP allocation) Dispel, Suppress, and tailored defenses (like a "shield" spell) are the way to go.

I also recommend that if you want to have "dueling wizards" moments you should allow Dispel to be Aborted to as a Defensive Action if it is used to "counter" an incoming spell.

If you _really_ want to encourage Counterspells, you can also waive the requirement for the Expanded Effect Advantage to allow a Dispel to work vs different sorts of Magic Spells one at a time so that the 3 pts / d6 keeps pace with the AP of most base powers allowing an equal AP Dispel to succeed on average.

[Robyn]

Just realize that if there are no restrictions on learning magic, lots of characters will want to learn one small spell from each school so as to get immunity to the lot...

I was thinking a patron-type system, possibly with the "choose which dark lord to sell your soul to" restrictions on being chosen by more than one.

Its a bad idea for most Magic Systems. Because one wizard can launch a magic missle is not a good justification for that wizard to be immune to other wizards magic missiles, for instance.

Lucius is correct in his interpretation, immunity is not just to the exact same spells but all spells of the same "source of magic" SFX. Not "type", which would classify spells by what they did, but "source", which classifies magic by where it comes from. The problem is that I can't value those SFX, much less cost out Personal Immunity for them. The HERO system specifically separates SFX from mechanics, which means there are not only no rules for building SFX with mechanics, but no guidelines either. (I can build the Visible effects of a power, using Linked Images, but while the exact nature of these Images is appropriate to the SFX, the SFX is more than that.) This is why I was thinking of mandatory Limitations on each spell; the source of a wizard's magic won't permit them to cast spells on any other wizard chosen by the same source (actually, that's not entirely correct; the spells will be cast just fine, but the source won't feed enough power to that spell to do anything).

I've learned that the mechanics do not need to fully reflect the "how this works" story/SFX of a power, so I'm considering a Personal Immunity as well. But if anyone has a way to cost out the SFX, please share

[ghost-angel]

If you go with this trope, Personal Immunity is generally used. It is what I would use.

I would also make it a campaign rule that you cannot, under any circumstances, have magic from more than one source. You may switch sources (if it makes sense for the game), but nothing more than that.

[The Mad GM]

Reasoning from effect: If a bad guy cast a fireball at a group containing a fire mage (let's call him Skippy), does it fizzle (dispel/suppress)? or does the fire mage and any equipment he's carrying simply not get effected while his compatriots burn?

Alternately: Skippy throws himself in front of a flame arrow to save a companion. Does it fizzle on his chest or zip through as if he wasn't there?

Or: Skippy's group is entangled in a cage of solid flame (work with me here), Skippy can just walk out and leave his friends behind?

In other words, can Green Lantern walk through yellow walls?

Or: Skippy accidentally starts a forest fire. Will the normal fire affect him? If I was Skippy, I'd have some sort of fire defense, above and beyond anything campaign specific.

If an intelligent being is granting the powers, he might simply not allow a spell to go off that would hurt a follower. That would be a limitation on the spell. Almost everything else feels like a defense power.

Personally I'd make it some sort of defense power, possibly Damage Reduction, only versus "college of magic"

[Killer Shrike]

Reasoning from effect: If a bad guy cast a fireball at a group containing a fire mage (let's call him Skippy), does it fizzle (dispel/suppress)? or does the fire mage and any equipment he's carrying simply not get effected while his compatriots burn?

Alternately: Skippy throws himself in front of a flame arrow to save a companion. Does it fizzle on his chest or zip through as if he wasn't there?

Or: Skippy's group is entangled in a cage of solid flame (work with me here), Skippy can just walk out and leave his friends behind?

In other words, can Green Lantern walk through yellow walls?

Or: Skippy accidentally starts a forest fire. Will the normal fire affect him? If I was Skippy, I'd have some sort of fire defense, above and beyond anything campaign specific.

If an intelligent being is granting the powers, he might simply not allow a spell to go off that would hurt a follower. That would be a limitation on the spell. Almost everything else feels like a defense power.

Personally I'd make it some sort of defense power, possibly Damage Reduction, only versus "college of magic"

Which is what I do in many cases. Limited Armor is also a favorite, and Absorption as a Defense can work too.

I also have some custom rules for "Spell Resistance" for those that like the idea, but Ive been moving away from it.

[Robyn]

Reasoning from effect: If a bad guy cast a fireball at a group containing a fire mage (let's call him Skippy), does it fizzle (dispel/suppress)? or does the fire mage and any equipment he's carrying simply not get effected while his compatriots burn?

I hadn't thought that far. To go with the single (if still rather vague ) character idea I had in mind, though, the magic either envelops or is just inside a wizard; it's with him at all times, and any effects that make contact are absorbed/dispersed and drawn back into the source by that same connection which allows the wizard to cast spells in the first place. Assuming they share that source, of course. Equipment might be affected.

On the bright side, if multiple fire mages were on the same team, one of them could lure the opponents into combat and then another could center a fireball on the melee

Alternately: Skippy throws himself in front of a flame arrow to save a companion. Does it fizzle on his chest or zip through as if he wasn't there?

I think it would get swallowed up, though AOE spells (such as fireball) would not be entirely cancelled (a single fire mage standing with arms akimbo against an onrushing wall of flame would leave a mage-sized hole in the wall as it rushed onward, perhaps leaving room for others to dash through).

Or: Skippy's group is entangled in a cage of solid flame (work with me here), Skippy can just walk out and leave his friends behind?

For continuous effects, the GM might rule that the flame was constantly renewing (how else does it avoid flickering and going out?), and therefore heals up "holes" made in it as the mage passes through, so the mage's body can't be used like an extinguisher/eraser

In other words, can Green Lantern walk through yellow walls?

Not to be picky about details, but Parallax wasn't part of the Central Battery; he just lived there. To answer your question in the spirit with which (I think) it was intended, contradicting limitations and immunities are resolved in accordance with the will of any entity responsible for all of them.

Or: Skippy accidentally starts a forest fire. Will the normal fire affect him?

If the spell has worn off (so the forest fire is only raging because his magic is still keeping it that way), I could look to SFX for whether the spell was just keeping conditions hot and dry (fanning the flames), or actually making things burn. Of course, since Skippy cast the spell himself, I might disallow immunity anyway (he only gets immunity to the spells of other fire magi, his own have to be let through or he would never be able to use beneficial spells on himself).

Secondary consequences of spells aren't blocked. You can use Levitate to lift something heavy, move it over the target's head, and let go; you can't slam it directly into them, because your magic is the only thing making it move, and it harmlessly comes to a stop when it gets near the target's body.

There are, of course, other uses here that a clever player may try. My intent is not to lay out exact rules for them to try finding loopholes in; most of these questions will be up to the GM running a game, possibly decided at the moment such a situation arises.

Personally I'd make it some sort of defense power, possibly Damage Reduction, only versus "college of magic"

The problem with doing this as a defensive power was that they're linear; the cost varies depending on how much you put into it, meaning that more powerful magi (with more points to spend) will be "absolutely defended" and their magical strength can easily overwhelm the defenses of weaker magi. Even the highest level of Damage Reduction doesn't provide 100% resistance.

[Thia Halmades]

My interpretation of this is: how would you build a magic user, or group of magic users, who have a specific immunity to the SFX of their own magic, based on source?

My question is: What are your 'sources' and how do they work? Ley Line magic? Air magic? Chakra magic? Geomancy? What are the sources, what SFX do those specific sources provide, and how does the actual immunity work?

Me, I wouldn't allow it, BUT, if that's what you're doing, I'm happy to help: need more information first.

[Robyn]

My question is: What are your 'sources' and how do they work? Ley Line magic? Air magic? Chakra magic? Geomancy? What are the sources, what SFX do those specific sources provide, and how does the actual immunity work?

You can read through my replies in this thread to see other answers to the question

However, a direct summation is that the "sources" are "patrons" (such as demon lords) who directly fuel each spell a wizard casts by means of a conduit which can convey magical energy. SFX of the spells may have no restrictions (i.e., spells need not share any SFX, and all wizards may have equal access to SFX regardless of who/what the source of their magic is), with those who have the ability to Detect Magic and discern the source as well (Discriminatory/Analyze?) sensing "different flavors" to the magic. Or, the GM might rule that some to all of a spell's SFX would be dictated by the source.

Immunity works by the source drawing back through the conduit any magical energy that originally came from it.

[The Mad GM]

I hadn't thought that far. To go with the single (if still rather vague ) character idea I had in mind, though, the magic either envelops or is just inside a wizard; it's with him at all times, and any effects that make contact are absorbed/dispersed and drawn back into the source by that same connection which allows the wizard to cast spells in the first place. Assuming they share that source, of course. Equipment might be affected.

On the bright side, if multiple fire mages were on the same team, one of them could lure the opponents into combat and then another could center a fireball on the melee

A little off topic, but is this ability one the character has to turn on, or is it just something he has? Can he pump up that ability to protect others, etc? Just thinking out loud.

I think it would get swallowed up, though AOE spells (such as fireball) would not be entirely cancelled (a single fire mage standing with arms akimbo against an onrushing wall of flame would leave a mage-sized hole in the wall as it rushed onward, perhaps leaving room for others to dash through).

For continuous effects, the GM might rule that the flame was constantly renewing (how else does it avoid flickering and going out?), and therefore heals up "holes" made in it as the mage passes through, so the mage's body can't be used like an extinguisher/eraser

Skippy's brother Pinky Pearl, otoh...

Not to be picky about details, but Parallax wasn't part of the Central Battery; he just lived there. To answer your question in the spirit with which (I think) it was intended, contradicting limitations and immunities are resolved in accordance with the will of any entity responsible for all of them.

I withdraw the question.

If the spell has worn off (so the forest fire is only raging because his magic is still keeping it that way), I could look to SFX for whether the spell was just keeping conditions hot and dry (fanning the flames), or actually making things burn. Of course, since Skippy cast the spell himself, I might disallow immunity anyway (he only gets immunity to the spells of other fire magi, his own have to be let through or he would never be able to use beneficial spells on himself).

Secondary consequences of spells aren't blocked. You can use Levitate to lift something heavy, move it over the target's head, and let go; you can't slam it directly into them, because your magic is the only thing making it move, and it harmlessly comes to a stop when it gets near the target's body.

There are, of course, other uses here that a clever player may try. My intent is not to lay out exact rules for them to try finding loopholes in; most of these questions will be up to the GM running a game, possibly decided at the moment such a situation arises.

I was just trying to get a sense of the effects.

The problem with doing this as a defensive power was that they're linear; the cost varies depending on how much you put into it, meaning that more powerful magi (with more points to spend) will be "absolutely defended" and their magical strength can easily overwhelm the defenses of weaker magi. Even the highest level of Damage Reduction doesn't provide 100% resistance.

Personally I'm a more dramatic storyteller than a rules person. But I prefer to have a consistent view of something so others can work out unusual uses I hadn't thought of, and still be in line with me initial intention. One of the ways I do this is try to think of what-if scenarios. I'm not trying to find loopholes, I'm trying to refine a concept.

[Robyn]

A little off topic, but is this ability one the character has to turn on, or is it just something he has?

Doesn't have to turn on, and can't turn off, either. Not really a choice.

[CraterMaker]

I was thinking a patron-type system, possibly with the "choose which dark lord to sell your soul to" restrictions on being chosen by more than one.

OOOOh! OOOOh! I pick Steve Long!!

-CraterMaker