Help with a spell

[Kabluey]

I'm wanting to create a spell for my campaign but I'm not sure how to do so. I'm using the Harn world, so this is a rough conversion of an existing system. Within Harn there is a spell called Merge which allows the caster to merge two other spells to combine their effects. I've given it some thought but haven't really come up with any good ideas of how to do this in Hero. The best I've come up with is vaguely some sort of Transform to alter the two spells such that they're one spell, which is immediately healed when the spell is cast. But that just seems remarkably clunky. Any one have any better ideas?

[teh bunneh]

Use Linked as a Naked Modifier?

[Robyn]

Use Linked as a Naked Modifier?

Is there a Digital Hero article that gives optional rules for taking Limitations as Naked?

My solution also entails using Naked on a Limitation

In the Revised Fifth Edition rulebook (there, that should clear up any acronym confusion), page 290 contains an interesting 3rd paragraph under "Extra Time"; according to this, the Limitation may (at the GM's discretion) be used to model powers that have a "delayed onset time" (such as poisons).

If you were able to take this as Naked, you could then give it a Side Effect that, if the other spell were not cast immediately after, the spell's onset would be delayed forever (this would prevent the character from resuming after extended interruptions of attempts to cast the second spell).

So, either you would immediately cast the second spell, or you would have to start over again from the beginning.

Mechanically this might seem as if it would require three actions (to cast all three spells), but I would let the combination spell itself (which I previously assumed, and now fervently hope, is cast just before the combined spells) be just the SFX of applying the Naked Limitation to the first spell; then, with just one more spell left to cast (and the first not taking effect until that next spell was cast), sufficient interruptions would mean the original spell was effectively never cast.

[JohnTaber]

Making a spell like this that works for ANY two spells is very tricky. Keep reading.

If you want to make a spell to combine Invis and Clinging for example I think you could use a compound power with Trigger as a naked advantage on one of the two powers. So when the Merge Invis/Cling spell is cast that allows the other two to be fired off after the triggered power is cast. Here is the idea...

Spell #1 - Invis
Spell #2 - Clinging
Spell #3 - Merge #1 and #2 = Naked Trigger on Clinging

In practice the mage would cast Merge first. This adds Trigger to Clinging. He then casts Clinging to set the spell. This can be done well before entering that nasty dungeon. When he wants to get away he casts Invis which triggers Clinging.

Personally as a GM I would only allow this version as it can be carefully controlled.

This version would also get very strange with attack spells as trigger does not COMBINE the powers it only allows one to follow the other. Combining attack spells like an EB and a flash is tricky and VERY VERY powerful.

To merge attack spells I would buy the merge as additional points to one of the powers. Again I'll use an example.

Spell #1 - 8d6 EB
Spell #2 - 4d6 Flash
Spell #3 - 4d6 Flash linked to the EB (This means an 80 point active spell.)

Doing this for ANY combination of anything would require a VPP. I can't think of any other way to be flexible enough...

[AmadanNaBriona]

Making a spell like this that works for ANY two spells is very tricky. Keep reading.

If you want to make a spell to combine Invis and Clinging for example I think you could use a compound power with Trigger as a naked advantage on one of the two powers. So when the Merge Invis/Cling spell is cast that allows the other two to be fired off after the triggered power is cast. Here is the idea...

Spell #1 - Invis
Spell #2 - Clinging
Spell #3 - Merge #1 and #2 = Naked Trigger on Clinging

In practice the mage would cast Merge first. This adds Trigger to Clinging. He then casts Clinging to set the spell. This can be done well before entering that nasty dungeon. When he wants to get away he casts Invis which triggers Clinging.

Personally as a GM I would only allow this version as it can be carefully controlled.

This version would also get very strange with attack spells as trigger does not COMBINE the powers it only allows one to follow the other. Combining attack spells like an EB and a flash is tricky and VERY VERY powerful.

To merge attack spells I would buy the merge as additional points to one of the powers. Again I'll use an example.

Spell #1 - 8d6 EB
Spell #2 - 4d6 Flash
Spell #3 - 4d6 Flash linked to the EB (This means an 80 point active spell.)

Doing this for ANY combination of anything would require a VPP. I can't think of any other way to be flexible enough...

What he said, especially re: Naked Trigger. Buyy a large enough AP naked Trigger advantage and you can effectively fire off any two spells at the same time. No synergystic/additive effeects, however, unless they're inherent in the write ups of the individual spells.
Merging attack spells need not be as complicated as implied, however. Multiple Power Attacks can cover a lot of ground here... they're not an option that's often allowed with Fantasy Hero spells, but I could see the exception, especially if hardcoded into the character as a "spell". Linked, after all, is nothing more than a limited form of MPA, so jumping through hoops to rebuild the attack with Linked could be a waste of effort.

Note also that many FH spells wouldn't require this at all, except for spells that require an attack action. Unless the spells are constructed with limits to prevent them from being cast simultaneously, they work like Champions Powers and you can activate a bunch of them at the same time already. If they are Limited to flavor preventing such "multi-casting",perhaps all you have to do is decrease some of the Limitation values (I.E. Limiting the Limitations) or replace some of the limits with Variable Limitation to reflect the differences (Example... Variable Lim that "defaults" to additional extra time (full phase), but when being "multicast" the extra time is replaced with a RSR ("Multispell" Power Skill) for the second spell.)
There also may be a way to approach this playing with the optional Duration advantages from FH such as Lingering, or the reduced cost variant Lingering Casting.
Hard call. Its a mechanic that doesn't really fit easily into the system. The Naked Trigger will be far and away the simplest solution, IMO.

[Killer Shrike]

Multiple Power Attack.

[Kabluey]

Multiple Power Attack.

I thought about this but I'm not allowing MPA in general, so how do I have a spell to enable it? Just a custom power worth as many AP as I think? I can do this, of course, but I was hoping for something less hand-wavey.

As to all the other responses, thanks for the ideas. I like the Naked Trigger modifier and think that's the way I'll go.

Regarding the Naked Linked, I did consider this. If I were to do it, I'd probably do it by changing it to an advantage named Linked and buying it that way, just for this particular spell. It's not so much a question of the Active Point cost. In my system, all spells are purchased as equipment, so the player doesn't have to worry about AP so much. Rather, it's more for END calculation. In Hero Designer, at least, the END for a power with negative Active Points is, as you might guess, zero. By making it an Advantage (and that seems reasonable in this case, since it is an advantage), then you get some END cost.

Again, thanks for the ideas.

[Killer Shrike]

Yep. Just decide how much its worth for your campaign, and define that as the base points of the effect. Apply any limitations applicable, and there is your spell.

[Lucius]

Actually, my first thought was "use the Power Skill." If this is something any given spellcaster can do, well, making adjustments to powers on the fly is what the Power Skill (Magick, in this case) is FOR.

However, I find that I'm not quite clear on what "merged" means in this context. Is the idea just that both spells go off simultaneously, and do not otherwise interact with each other?

Lucius Alexander

Watch for Merging Palindromedaries

[Thia Halmades]

The first thing you have to ask yourself is "What, exactly, does Merge do?" ANY two spells? Two specific spells? The question is really open and I know <zippy> about HARN or anything related to it. Hence, ergo, and forthwith, I automatically am limited in my ability to contribute. But let's say you want to Merge two spells.

Fireball, and Darkness, 10" Radius. Okay. So in addition to lighting everyone ON FIRE, I'm also going to render them blind. That'll do. Get m Napalm on. There's a few ways to do this that I see from the front.

A really, really big VPP. With a large enough VPP you can do just about anything. I mean, straight up. You could use it to 'merge' two spells and (assuming a memorizing structure) have both of the 'other' spells eliminated as Side Effect.

So, Fiery Darkness (Fireball + Darkness) would be:

Fiery Darkness, 6d6 EB plus Darkness X", Side Effect: Consumes Fireball & Darkness spells.

You can use this template concept for any of the spells you want. I'm not suggesting you try and build a mechanic or an NPA - this is HERO, so the only thing that matters is the result.

I heard: "I cast two spells and get a new, combined effect spell."
So I said: "Write the 'new' spell as a "spell" so you know concretely what it does, and include the side effect, consumes these other spells in the process, and call the new spell, Merge: Fiery Darkness."

The only downside is that you need to know your effects in advance. RATHER THAN writing them all up early on, go with the flow. If the guy says, "I want to Merge these two spells" you give it a ponder, cut 'em in half (or more, or if it's a new effect - i.e., Invis + Fireball really creates a Heat Mirage, or whatever) you simply rule on the effect, write down what you did and how you got there, and then you'll have a handy 'write up' for all future uses.

Not even two cents. It's a half cent.