Marine Corps Martial Arts Program

[Killer Shrike]

The reason the meritorious promotion system exists in the Corps is because it can be difficult to get promoted otherwise.

The Marine Corps promotes by need by MOS, in cutting score order. So if they don't need any more people of the next higher rank in your MOS, you just don't get promoted no matter how long youve been in or how good you are or how high your pros and cons scores are.

[Teflon Billy]

The reason the meritorious promotion system exists in the Corps is because it can be difficult to get promoted otherwise.

The Marine Corps promotes by need by MOS, in cutting score order. So if they don't need any more people of the next higher rank in your MOS, you just don't get promoted no matter how long youve been in or how good you are or how high your pros and cons scores are.

That's exactly how it is in the Army as well.

If they don't need any Sergeants or Staff Sergeants in an MOS, the cutoff score goes to 798 out of 800. Now, it's still possible to get promoted, but if you if you miss more than 1 bullet at the range out of 40, or miss a perfect score less than perfect on your PT test by more than 2 push-ups, 2 sit-ups, or 12 seconds on the run; you aren't getting promoted.

Otherwise, you just have to reclass to a below or at strength MOS.

TB

[Killer Shrike]

So then, do most soldiers acheive Sergeant in the Army on thier first term of enlistment?

[Teflon Billy]

So then, do most soldiers acheive Sergeant in the Army on thier first term of enlistment?

No, not that I've seen but that's because most terms of enlistment aren't more than 3-4 years.

They don't stay in long enough to go for Sergeant, or they don't have enough time left to get promoted (you need to have so many months left on your enlistment, or be willing to re-up)

Even then, it just comes down to motivation. There were plenty of people around me who just weren't motivated to actually working for rank. They'd take whatever the Army was willing to give them in promotion (which is Specialist (E4)) but they had no interest in seeking anything higher.

I, however, did not find it hard at all getting Sergeant and there were plenty of my friends around me who were motivated that found it the same.

Now, there is the other issue of people getting to go before the promo board who just didn't have enough promo points to make themselves competetive for making the cut.

I was really surprised at that what I considered a mediocre effort on my part working at getting promo points and I shot to the top of the Order of Merit List (based on total promo points) for consideration to go to PLDC (the Army's Sergeant's Course)

How hard was it to get recommended for promotion in the Marines, what were the general time in service/grade requirements that you had to have before you could be considered?

TB

[Killer Shrike]

Hard to say in a broad sense; my Marine Corps experience was probably a little unique due to my MOS (Intelligence), units (G-2s and Intelligence Co.), and medical problems (broken leg).

Personally, I made PFC out of boot, LCpl in the minimum possible time, and Corporal in two years. However, then I badly broke my leg -- full tib / fib fracture -- and went on limited duty. I broke it again twice more later on over the next 3 years (I had a 5 year contract). All total I spent 2 non-consecutive years of my 5 year contract on limited duty; about a year total in casts, and the other year in rehab / recovery mode.

I continued to be deployed and work on various special projects even on limited duty due to my clearance and special qualifications had high PFT scores, did all the required correspondence courses, had high point-value medals, very high pros & cons (4.9 / 4.9 average -- I even got a perfect 5.0 / 5.0 once from no less than a two-star general, which was unheard of). I eventually had a monstrous cutting score. Promotion warrants for Sergeant came down for me several times, but because I was on limited duty each time I was ineligible for it and they were destroyed. The subject came up often at high levels of command as I was very well known and frequently requested by name for various projects and ops.

It didnt matter to me at any rate; I had already decided my first year in before I was injured that I didnt intend to make a career of the military; I had won a congressional appointment to Annapolis, which was started before I joined but resolved after I had already been in the Corps about 5 months, and I turned it down almost at the end of the process after reaching the fleet and working at my initial jobs at 1st FSSG G2 for about a month and then I MEF G2 for several months.

I still gave it my all, mind you, but I fully planned to get out at the end of my tour and seek more rewarding work in the civilian sector, which I did.

[Teflon Billy]

Hard to say in a broad sense; my Marine Corps experience was probably a little unique due to my MOS (Intelligence), units (G-2s and Intelligence Co.), and medical problems (broken leg).

Personally, I made PFC out of boot, LCpl in the minimum possible time, and Corporal in two years. However, then I badly broke my leg -- full tib / fib fracture -- and went on limited duty. I broke it again twice more later on over the next 3 years (I had a 5 year contract). All total I spent 2 non-consecutive years of my 5 year contract on limited duty; about a year total in casts, and the other year in rehab / recovery mode.

I continued to be deployed and work on various special projects even on limited duty due to my clearance and special qualifications had high PFT scores, did all the required correspondence courses, had high point-value medals, very high pros & cons (4.9 / 4.9 average -- I even got a perfect 5.0 / 5.0 once from no less than a two-star general, which was unheard of). I eventually had a monstrous cutting score. Promotion warrants for Sergeant came down for me several times, but because I was on limited duty each time I was ineligible for it and they were destroyed.

It didnt matter to me at any rate; I had already decided my first year in before I was injured that I didnt intend to make a career of the military; I had one a congressional appointment to Annapolis, which resolved after I had already been in the Corps about 5 months, and I turned it down almost at the end of the process after reaching the fleet and working at my initial jobs at 1st FSSG G2 for about a month and then I MEF G2 for several months.

I still gave it my all, mind you, but I fully planned to get out at the end of my tour and seek more rewarding work in the civilian sector, which I did.

Well, your job (Intelligence) and unit (Intelligence Co.) wasn't that different from mine (Intelligence) and my unit (Intelligence Co.)

It does seem that you got some cherry assignments, which coupled with your obvious talents and motivation were unique.

I don't think in the Army you can be denied a promotion for being on temporary profile as long as you have a still valid PT test (less than a year old) and aren't on weight control.

Even a permenant profile isn't a bar against promotion.

A Temorary profile is just a bar against going to any professional development schools (like the Sergeant's Course). A permenant profile wasn't a bar.

That seems awefully stupid penalizing someone from promotion because they happened to be recovering form a injury.

TB

[Killer Shrike]

Awfully stupid rules is something the military excels at, in my experience

[ahnen]

Isn't the real difference that the new martial arts are required of ALL Marines of ALL ranks? Or was I misled by the news release.

Mark

[sbarron]

I was in the infantry, 2nd battalion/4th marines, in Lejeune from 92 to 96. Promotions in the infantry were also pretty rare. Most guys arrived in the fleet as Privates or PFC, got promoted to lance corporal within a year, and made corporal sometime late in their 3rd year or early in their 4th. Making Sgt in 4 years in the infantry could happen, but it had to happen because someone was acing boards and getting meritorious promotions. Usually, however, guys could make Sgt. if the re-upped pretty fast...like say by their 5th or 6th year.

We "learned" in bootcamp and MCS pretty much everything Killer Shrike pointed to in Close Combat link. Which is to say we spent a couple days on it here and there. When we got to the fleet, every few weeks we would practice LINE training, which is to say we went through the LINE training drills for a couple hours at most. A couple of our NCOs got to go through the full course, which might have lasted a week. They returned and were supposed to spread what they'd learned around to us. Didn't much happen, though.

There just wasn't much importance placed on H-to-H training. At the time, the real concern of the Corps seemed to be that we would be taught something that we'd hurt a civilian with, or we'd get hurt in training. So it was better "not" to train us up much, for fear we would abuse the knowledge and someone would get hurt.

I think Killer Shrike is probably right about things being different in "war time." You can say what you want about the Marine Corps, but there is no way the leadership is going to send young Marines out into combat without all the advantages that can be provided them (if it can be helped). Placing a real emphasis on H-to_H training will help Marines in combat. And probably even more so if they're in operations other than combat, where non-lethal force becomes a realistic option.

[sbarron]

Isn't the real difference that the new martial arts are required of ALL Marines of ALL ranks? Or was I misled by the news release.

Mark

Every marine is a rifleman, so all marines are taught at least the basic combat training, regardless of sex, rank, or MOS. H-to-H stuff included. I think the difference is that there will be an emphasis placed on this training, which wasn't the case in the past.

[Squall]

I've always figured your average infantryman is supposed to (a) shoot the bastard, not karate chop him, or failing that (b) take 'em in hand to hand just by being in better shape than your average Joe on the street. There's not a ton of hand to hand training required, then (given they're generally busier, and better served, through more marksmanship or general PT), and -- as was mentioned -- the possibility/probability for injuries in hand to hand training's gotta be pretty danged high.

Never (quite) got to Serve, myself. Signed up as a 12B in the Army (Combat Engineer), went to Ft Lost-In-The-Woods in 2001, had two weeks to go of OSUT, and got sent home, diagnosed with asthma, and check-marked as "physically unfit for service." Nothing quite like finding out you're asthmatic at basic. It's still one of my biggest regrets -- I keep thinking maybe if I'd tried it just a few years earlier (and been just a few years younger than my then-23), maybe I could've done better, and the asthma never would've come up.

Ah well. Spilled milk, and all that.

[Shaft]

I have a question for those of you who have actually done the Marine HtH (or can envision what it should be when they teach it right) in relation to the game rules:

How close is it to the Commando HtH listed in the UMA on p23? Is there anything that should be added/dropped from that listing?

(For those of you who don't have it, I've listed the maneuvers:

• Aikido Throw (3 pts) +0OCV/+1DCV STR +v/5 damage, target falls
• Boxing Cross (4 pts) +0OCV/+2DCV STR +2d6 damage
• Choke (4 pts) Grab one limb, 2d6 NND
• Escape (4 pts) +15 STR to escape
• Hold (4 pts) -1OCV/-1DCV Grab Three Limbs, +10 STR for hold
• Judo Disarm (4 pts) -1OCV/+1DCV, disarm, +10 STR for disarm
• Karate "Chop" (4 pts) -2OCV/+0DCV HKA 1/2d
• Kung Fu Block (4 pts) +2OCV/+2DCV Block, Abort
• Breakfall
• WF: small arms
• Weapon Element Bare-handed (default)
• Weapon Element Club
• Weapon Element Knives

Does the existing style already cover this, effectively making the Marine LINE system a "special effect" of the Commando style, or should something be added to differentiate it?

[Vondy]

I'm of the opinion that your average soldier - including infantrymen - doesn't have any martial maneuvers. They probably don't have hand to hand levels, either. There are lots of basic maneuvers their introductory training probably enlighten them to, but they aren't hand to hand officianados. Its not really what they're trained to do. On the other hand, you probably have a small core of really dedicated warriors who have taken the time to avail themselves of the opportunities, and most of them probably have 1 or 2 maneuvers. Remember, a black belt is generally defined as having 10 points of maneuvers, a KS, and maybe some WE/WF skills.

[FenrisUlf]

Somewhat OT, but as long as we're talking military martial arts --

Say, VDM, is Krav Maga still taught to all members of the IDF? And just how extensive is the training?

I've also heard that it was being taught outside Israel now, to police and soldiers from other nations. It sounds like a perfect martial art for cops and such, from everything I've read/heard about it.

[Killer Shrike]

I have a question for those of you who have actually done the Marine HtH (or can envision what it should be when they teach it right) in relation to the game rules:

How close is it to the Commando HtH listed in the UMA on p23? Is there anything that should be added/dropped from that listing?

(For those of you who don't have it, I've listed the maneuvers:

• Aikido Throw (3 pts) +0OCV/+1DCV STR +v/5 damage, target falls
• Boxing Cross (4 pts) +0OCV/+2DCV STR +2d6 damage
• Choke (4 pts) Grab one limb, 2d6 NND
• Escape (4 pts) +15 STR to escape
• Hold (4 pts) -1OCV/-1DCV Grab Three Limbs, +10 STR for hold
• Judo Disarm (4 pts) -1OCV/+1DCV, disarm, +10 STR for disarm
• Karate "Chop" (4 pts) -2OCV/+0DCV HKA 1/2d
• Kung Fu Block (4 pts) +2OCV/+2DCV Block, Abort
• Breakfall
• WF: small arms
• Weapon Element Bare-handed (default)
• Weapon Element Club
• Weapon Element Knives

Does the existing style already cover this, effectively making the Marine LINE system a "special effect" of the Commando style, or should something be added to differentiate it?

The training I received focused a lot on wrist locks, arm bars, groin strikes, takedowns, and head strikes. We trained a bit on punching, but for the most part were encouraged to use our elbows and boots to avoid breaking our hands or bruising our knees. We also trained on breaking opponents wrists, elbows, and knees.

We trained a fair amount on breaking a grab in a fashion that is closest to a reversal to be followed up with a wrist or arm lock, but other than that while the grappling aspects were covered they were not encouraged.

The goal was to take an opponent out as fast as possible -- usually by doing something extremely painful to create an opening and put them at a disadvantage, and then finishing them.


Without sitting down and spending a lot of time on it, if you went through all of the manuevers covered by LINE training, Id say the core maneuver list was something like this:

Lead Hand Strike: normal Strike (free)
Rear Hand Strike: Basic Strike (3)
Counter To Punch: Grappling Block (5)
Counter To Grab: Reversal (4)
Takedown / Throws: Takedown (3)
Wrist Lock / Armbar / Joint Manipulation: Joint Lock (4)
Break Wrist / Elbow: Joint Break (5)
Blood Choke: Choke Hold (4)
Axe Stomp / Groin Strike / Knee Kick: Killing Strike (4)
Pressure Point Strikes: Nerve Strike (4)
Tactical Disarm: Takeaway (5)

And with the following Elements:
Knives
Club / Batons
Rifle / Bayonet
Use Art While Prone

However, thats obviously a huge expenditure of points. In reality, while the instructors and those that received more in depth training had some or all of these manuevers, the average Marine given the basic LINE training probably derived the following benefit from it:

Rear Hand Strike: Basic Strike (3)
Wrist Lock / Armbar / Joint Manipulation: Joint Lock (4)
Takedown / Throws: Takedown (3)

Marines that already had some HtH fighting skill or took to it quickly and were able to derive more benefit from the same training might have one or two more maneuvers, most likely those that are easiest to pick up or that are more "natural" such as:

Blood Choke: Choke Hold (4)
Axe Stomp / Groin Strike / Knee Kick: Killing Strike (4)
Counter To Grab: Reversal (4)

We actually did bayonet and rifle fighting training seperate of LINE training, but there is obvious cross over, so most Marines would probably have the Rifle / Bayonet element, but the other elements were much less emphasized and most Marines would not have them.