Marine Corps Martial Arts Program

[Shaft]

Memo to self: must not taunt the Marine Corps.

[Teflon Billy]

The Army's new Combatives training is covered in FM 3-21.150:

http://www.globalsecurity.org/milita...150/index.html

Every 2LT is supposed to be trained up to Level 1 by the time they get out of th Basic Officer's Leadership Course (Level II) and the Basic Officer's Leadership Course (Level III) (Level II is a new course that is the Army's try at duplicating "the Basic Course" that the Marines have and BOLC III is the old Army Officer Basic Course)

Level 1 is supposed to involve 40-45 hours of classroom instruction.

The idea is to get all LTs trained up in it so they can bring the knowledge back to there platoons and units and be helpers to the Platoon Sergeant who should be trained up to Level 2 or 3.

The Army Combatives (at Level 1) are focused on grappling, chokes, and escaping from others putting you in the guard. It's supposed to be based on Brazilian Jujitsu.

TB

[Shaft]

The Army's new Combatives training is covered in FM 3-21.150:

http://www.globalsecurity.org/milita...150/index.html

Every 2LT is supposed to be trained up to Level 1 by the time they get out of th Basic Officer's Leadership Course (Level II) and the Basic Officer's Leadership Course (Level III) (Level II is a new course that is the Army's try at duplicating "the Basic Course" that the Marines have and BOLC III is the old Army Officer Basic Course)

Level 1 is supposed to involve 40-45 hours of classroom instruction.

The idea is to get all LTs trained up in it so they can bring the knowledge back to there platoons and units and be helpers to the Platoon Sergeant who should be trained up to Level 2 or 3.

The Army Combatives (at Level 1) are focused on grappling, chokes, and escaping from others putting you in the guard. It's supposed to be based on Brazilian Jujitsu.

TB

So how close would you say Hero's "Commando Training" martial art is to it?

[actingkeith]

The Marine Corps promotes by need by MOS, in cutting score order. So if they don't need any more people of the next higher rank in your MOS, you just don't get promoted no matter how long youve been in or how good you are or how high your pros and cons scores are.

While that was true on paper when I was in (85 to 89), it was a load of crap because promotions and TOE were based on budget, which meant that they would keep folks at E3 and below until it came time to re-up, then they'd dangle E4 in your face to get you to sign. I knew so many E3s who had a GCM (Good Conduct Medal - give after 4 years of service and not having been arrested/tried/convicted/NJP'd for something too serious).

I was stunned when they made me an E4 before my enlistment ended.

And now back on topic:

I think a Rank-based system of Martial Arts for the Marines is retarded. The fiercest Marines I knew were the E2s through E4 (excepting of course all those wacky E1s who had been in for 3 years and just couldn't keep out of trouble). After E4, you have to really start letting go of the mean stuff and start focusing on 'larger picture' issues like Maneuver, Tactics, and Logictics.

And Officers should get any real Martial Arts anything past whatever a basic newbie would get. I mean really, please... get real.

I don't remember what sort of fighting training I got when I was in, all I remember is that we got into a lot of fights, usually amongst ourselves unless there was some Navy around, or better yet Army... we always left the Air Force alone for some reason. We'd fight anyone - it was crazy. It was brutal.

My preference would be an MOS based system that would go something like this:

Basic Training - Everyone gets this including Officers- but I don't care what it looks like... the rest of what's below is for enlisted only.
03xx - Infantry Package - if you're in an Infantry MOS you get this
0341 - The mortar guys don't get anything passed the 03xx package
0351 - Same for the anti tank assault guys, they're to busy trying to be combat engineeers
0331 - Machine Gunners (aside from be completely insane, all of them) should get a bit more stuff
0311 - The Rifleman should have access to the most training of any Marine with the exception of
0321 - The Recon Marine should probably have one or two sneaky/nasty things above an 0311 grunt.

Since I was in the infantry as a Scout, I don't know what fighting crap the other MOSs got on a regular basis, or who received any HtH fighting training past Boot Camp. If any of them did, they should have a maneuver or two above the Basic Training package.

I remember the Motor T guys being really good in a scrap, and the Cooks really liked to hit... anyone.

I also would say that the Ranks of E3 and E4 should be allowed to have the most Levels in HtH, Ranged, or probably All Combat. E1s and 2s should be limited, and past E4, they need to make those levels Overall, or change them to levels of Tactics or Logistics skills.

Anyway those are my thoughts.

Cheers,

-keith

[actingkeith]

Does the existing style already cover this, effectively making the Marine LINE system a "special effect" of the Commando style...

I think that it's pretty much a Special Effect of the Commando Style.

[Vondy]

Somewhat OT, but as long as we're talking military martial arts --

Say, VDM, is Krav Maga still taught to all members of the IDF? And just how extensive is the training?

I've also heard that it was being taught outside Israel now, to police and soldiers from other nations. It sounds like a perfect martial art for cops and such, from everything I've read/heard about it.

It is taught in the IDF, as well as to military and law enforcement outside of Israel. Within the IDF, since the ratio of support to grunts in modern militaries runs 6:1 to 8:1, most soldiers only get a crash crash course. Mainline infantry units get somewhat more training, and additional voluntary classes are available if they want them. I can't say how many people avail themselves of them. The exceptions are the sayaret (special forces) and military border police, who have regularly scheduled Krav Maga training requirements they have to meet - and who are said to be very good at it.

The special units of the Israeli National Police, like the Yassam units, also train regularly with it, but like most police agencies, your average officer is somewhat lax about these things - though he does train with it some. Also, in terms of police use, its been noted that Krav Maga is not appropriate many common police scenarios, and this has resulted in a great deal of internal criticism of the Israeli National Police, who have a deserved reputation for unecessary brutality.

As someone who studied criminal justice and worked as an auxilliary police officer in the United States I have observed that the professional continuum of force for civillian police is virtually non-existant in Israel. The INP is essentially an organization of Wyatt Earps. They INP Police Intelligence Division is incredible, as is the CID (very high success rates for crimes solved), but the average police officer (and their commanders) would be regarded as unprofessional by Western standards.

He's essentially a guy who got out of the military and went into an organization that encouraged him to continue thinking and acting like he was in the military - despite radically different operational paradigms. With the exception of special units you should not teach police officers commando training because they will use what you teach them! A police officer dealing with the public needs different tools to do his job effectively. He's not Rambo and he is dealing with his fellow citizens, not enemy combatants. I'm very dubious about western police organizations adopting Krav Maga - its the wrong tool for the job.

Which is not to say it isn't effective (it is very effective in an ugly sort of way); but really, when the LAPD starts in with eye gouges, lip and ear pulls (and tears), joint breaks, and kidney shots as opposed to locks, pressure points, and baton use on meaty, non-lethal body parts, I garauntee you the public will go ape over it - and with good reason. Bud White, for all his glory, is not what we look for in our LE officers.

[Shaft]

With the exception of special units you should not teach police officers commando training because they will use what you teach them! A police officer dealing with the public needs different tools to do his job effectively. He's not Rambo and he is dealing with his fellow citizens, not enemy combatants. I'm very dubious about western police organizations adopting Krav Maga - its the wrong tool for the job.

"There's a reason you separate the military and the police. One fights the enemies of the state, the other serves and protects the people. When the military becomes both, then the enemies of the state tend to become the people." -Commander Adama, in the episode "Bastille Day"

[Lucius]

I don't remember what sort of fighting training I got when I was in, all I remember is that we got into a lot of fights, usually amongst ourselves unless there was some Navy around, or better yet Army... we always left the Air Force alone for some reason. We'd fight anyone - it was crazy. It was brutal.

That’s because the Air Force doesn’t give you the opportunity to fight. A scene from my own Basic Training:

Instructor: Okay, say you’re drinking in a bar and a bunch of Marines come swaggering in, start drinking, and make insulting remarks about those wussy flyboys. What do you do?
Me: Sir, I’d go do my drinking in another bar.
(Lots of laughing.)
Instructor: Airman Alexander has it right. Stay out of the way of the Marines.

They teach us to leave you alone. We already know U.S. Marines are crazy, brutal, and the world’s best warriors short of the Special Forces. No need to let you prove it the hard way (hard for us.)

You crazy guys go practice your hand to hand with the Soldiers and Sailors. We’ll stay focused on things like making sure you get as little chance as possible to go hand to hand with the enemy by rendering them dead, disorganized, and/or demoralized before you get your crack at them.

"There's a reason you separate the military and the police. One fights the enemies of the state, the other serves and protects the people. When the military becomes both, then the enemies of the state tend to become the people." -Commander Adama, in the episode "Bastille Day"

REPPED. Times like this I wish I had a TV.

Lucius Alexander

And an Air Force Surplus palindromedary

[Lucius]

"There are only two kinds of people that understand Marines: Marines and the enemy. Everyone else has a second-hand opinion."

General William Thomson


But General Thomson was in the Army, so what does he know about Marines?

Lucius Alexander

And an Air Force Surplus Palindromedary

[lapsedgamer]

... With the exception of special units you should not teach police officers commando training because they will use what you teach them! A police officer dealing with the public needs different tools to do his job effectively. He's not Rambo and he is dealing with his fellow citizens, not enemy combatants. I'm very dubious about western police organizations adopting Krav Maga - its the wrong tool for the job.

Which is not to say it isn't effective (it is very effective in an ugly sort of way); but really, when the LAPD starts in with eye gouges, lip and ear pulls (and tears), joint breaks, and kidney shots as opposed to locks, pressure points, and baton use on meaty, non-lethal body parts, I garauntee you the public will go ape over it - and with good reason. Bud White, for all his glory, is not what we look for in our LE officers.

I only wish that the people I deal with were held to the same standard of fair play and gentleness when they decide to fight.

Locks and pressure points are useless unless the person is suitably subdued before you try to apply them. People who want to kill you, or ar least knock your head off, do not wait for a fancy joint lock to be applied. They continue to try and hurt you at full speed. The only exception I have ever seen to this in practical application is if the person applying the hold significatly outweighs the person who is resisting the hold, and that's not a guarantee. I have seen some "cool" stuff in the dojo that would never fly in real life.

There is a reason some Japanese systems still teach atemi-waza (disabling blows). These moves went before and after less damaging techniques in old school martial training. You stunned or injured people before you tried to apply a lock or a choke.

Baton strikes to the targets described are good, but the number that you generally have to deliver tend to offend the public and review boards. Remember, these people are hopped up on adrenaline, alcohol, crack, PCP or some combination of the above. They tend not to feel pain like the average person would. However, I agree that that is the best way to use an impact weapon when deadly force is not warranted.

The fastest takedown I have ever seen on the street was a kidney shot. Was it right? I don't know, but it worked and no one was hurt. I would only balk at pulling off an ear because I don't know if it would be a decisive move, and it would be too hard to explain after the fact. However, If I am losing I will do whatever comes to mind. No apologies.

I say train in Krav Maga, Jeet Kun Do, Kali, whatever you want, but don't be unrealistic in your expectations when thing go wrong in the street. Don't forget there are no real superheroes out there. Police officers are not invulnerable. As always, YMMV.

[actingkeith]

"There are only two kinds of people that understand Marines: Marines and the enemy. Everyone else has a second-hand opinion."

General William Thomson

But General Thomson was in the Army, so what does he know about Marines?

I think what he was probably saying was

(scratching his head in confusion) "...I, I, I just don't get it...it's weird..."

<<<>>>

One of the guys in my unit had previously been an Army Ranger with service in the Granada invasion (1982). When asked why he changed services, his response was to tell a story about how his Ranger unit (30 guys) was pinned down they called for help... and what showed up was a squad of Marines (a dozen guys)... the Marines ran, laughing and yelping straight into the assault and wiped out the opposition (which turned out to be a platoon-sized unit of about 50 guys) in a matter of minutes.

He said it was the joy-filled laughing and yelping that sent a chill down his spine and made him realize that the marines were a different breed. He said he needed to find out what that was all about.

<<<>>>

It's weird.

Marines are weird.

Peace,

-k

[FenrisUlf]

Dumb OT question time -- So, lapsedgamer, you're a police officer then?

[Killer Shrike]

I think what he was probably saying was

(scratching his head in confusion) "...I, I, I just don't get it...it's weird..."

<<<>>>

One of the guys in my unit had previously been an Army Ranger with service in the Granada invasion (1982). When asked why he changed services, his response was to tell a story about how his Ranger unit (30 guys) was pinned down they called for help... and what showed up was a squad of Marines (a dozen guys)... the Marines ran, laughing and yelping straight into the assault and wiped out the opposition (which turned out to be a platoon-sized unit of about 50 guys) in a matter of minutes.

He said it was the joy-filled laughing and yelping that sent a chill down his spine and made him realize that the marines were a different breed. He said he needed to find out what that was all about.

<<<>>>

It's weird.

Marines are weird.

Peace,

-k

We're not weird, we're just a litte crazy.

[Starwolf]

Marines are weird.-k

Of course they are...

What is the sound of crap hitting the fan?



MAAARRRRINE!!!!

We have all seen the Marine Corps emblem...

The proud eagle with his wings spread to show the Marines dominion over land and sea....

with the fowled anchor shoved up his butt to remind him where he comes from

ROFLOL

Seriously marines are cool

** I am retired Navy in case you can't tell from the banter **

[lapsedgamer]

True story, Fenris. I only post about it when I get cranky.