Marine Corps Martial Arts Program

[NightStick]

We're not weird, we're just a litte crazy.

I second that thought!

IIRC, While I was in 3rd phase of boot camp at MCRD, CA. back in the 70's, I had a Gunny that did "three tours" in Nam. He was teaching "self defense" to the squad that I was in. The statement that I remember above all else, was as follows..."The crazier you are, the easier the fight will be." His analogy was about him in a bar after his boot camp. He offended another patron, who was there with his three buddies and after some name calling was challenged to a fight. He "repectfully" declined, because there weren't enough of them to be a fair fight. Another couple of willing participants from the next table over offered to help put the "jarhead" in his place. The net result, was that the Gunny walked away with a split lip and some bleeding knuckles. The six "others" were left for the bar to clean up; insinuating unconsiousness.

I can't say that I truly believed the story, but, as they say, when in Rome...

UUUUUUUUUHHHHHHHRRRRRRRRRAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHH!

[Vondy]

As always, YMMV.

It does, but probably because ships have passed in the night rather than a philosophical difference. I studied crim-j and worked as an auxilliary officer. I suited up and pulled shifts; and I knew what went on with the other officers on a day in and day out basis. It is a rare day indeed that an officer would need the techniques Krav Maga focuses on. I had studied wing chun and judo at the time, and found them useful, but I never needed to rend, maim, or disfigure someone I was arresting, and neither did the officers I worked with. Guns came out on occassion, and I had the displeasure of responding to an armed robbery that had shots fired, but once you've reached that level you've gone past the subdue and arrest paradigm altogether, anyways.

Yes, the Japanese Police study martial arts extensively and learn disabling techniques, but the art they study provides them with a vast array of options that allows them to end 99% of the situations they encounter before they reach the "get medieval" fest of joy. What's more, they work in a very different cultural paradigm, and they have to answer for using potentially injurious techniques the same way an American police officer has to answer for using a weapon on a suspect. They don't take it lightly, and they wouldn't approve of an officer using several of the techniques in Krav Maga because it doesn't fit their philosophy of policing, or their culture, either. Despite the broad authority their police enjoy, they still have sharp lines defining what is appropriate, and many of the more brutal techniques are considered verboten.

Krav Maga does not give you a vast array of additional options you can use to subdue and arrest a suspect before it gets to the rend, maim, and disfigure point because it skips right over the preliminaries and goes straight to that dark, nasty, lawless place. It has a limited array of strikes and holds because it wasn't really designed for that because those are foreplay and its an insensitive alpha male that wants to do the deed. Krav Maga is an incomplete art, and its not a very good tool unless you go in planning to take no prisoners; or intend your prisoners be dragged in broken. Its not congruent with the function of the police, who fill of civillian role in a much tighter, more controlled paradigm that a soldier finds himself in. Just because it works in the alleys of Bint Jbeil doesn't mean it should be used on citizens who have fallen afoul of the police.

A police officer uses what you teach him because he has to fall back on his training when it hits the fan. If you teach him a limited art that focuses on extremely brutal techniques then you will get limited and extremely brutal police officers - not because they are bad men, but because you didn't give them more suitable options that can be applied to the average street encounter with an opponent who is less than gentle, but doesn't require having his ears torn off, his eyes gouged out, his joints broken backwards, his windpipe crushed, his kidneys being elbowed and his spleen ruptured, his ribcage being smashed in with repeated knee shots....

You see where this is going. I'm not opposed to police learning well rounded martial arts that give them appropriate options when confronting suspects in the field. In fact, I advocate it. But I am patently opposed to training police officers learning an art that focuses on all the wrong things in terms of the job they do. Just kick him in the face or something.

[Tim]

I think this fits this thread.

[Starwolf]

I think this fits this thread.

Thats funny

All of the undead "Marines" in the picture are wearing Army Ranger tabs and airborne patches

[Teflon Billy]

Thats funny

All of the undead "Marines" in the picture are wearing Army Ranger tabs and airborne patches

And 82nd Airborne Division unit patches.

TB

[Tim]

Hey, I didn't makeit, I just found it.

[Teflon Billy]

Hey, I didn't makeit, I just found it.

Oh, it doesn't matter, we'll still ridicule you anyways.

TB

[lapsedgamer]

...Yes, the Japanese Police study martial arts extensively and learn disabling techniques, but the art they study provides them with a vast array of options that allows them to end 99% of the situations they encounter before they reach the "get medieval" fest of joy. What's more, they work in a very different cultural paradigm, and they have to answer for using potentially injurious techniques the same way an American police officer has to answer for using a weapon on a suspect. They don't take it lightly, and they wouldn't approve of an officer using several of the techniques in Krav Maga because it doesn't fit their philosophy of policing, or their culture, either. Despite the broad authority their police enjoy, they still have sharp lines defining what is appropriate, and many of the more brutal techniques are considered verboten.

Krav Maga does not give you a vast array of additional options you can use to subdue and arrest a suspect before it gets to the rend, maim, and disfigure point because it skips right over the preliminaries and goes straight to that dark, nasty, lawless place. It has a limited array of strikes and holds because it wasn't really designed for that because those are foreplay and its an insensitive alpha male that wants to do the deed. Krav Maga is an incomplete art, and its not a very good tool unless you go in planning to take no prisoners; or intend your prisoners be dragged in broken. Its not congruent with the function of the police, who fill of civillian role in a much tighter, more controlled paradigm that a soldier finds himself in. Just because it works in the alleys of Bint Jbeil doesn't mean it should be used on citizens who have fallen afoul of the police.

A police officer uses what you teach him because he has to fall back on his training when it hits the fan. If you teach him a limited art that focuses on extremely brutal techniques then you will get limited and extremely brutal police officers - not because they are bad men, but because you didn't give them more suitable options that can be applied to the average street encounter with an opponent who is less than gentle, but doesn't require having his ears torn off, his eyes gouged out, his joints broken backwards, his windpipe crushed, his kidneys being elbowed and his spleen ruptured, his ribcage being smashed in with repeated knee shots....

You see where this is going. I'm not opposed to police learning well rounded martial arts that give them appropriate options when confronting suspects in the field. In fact, I advocate it. But I am patently opposed to training police officers learning an art that focuses on all the wrong things in terms of the job they do. Just kick him in the face or something.

The point I want to make is this: The rules of engagement are not static, and people are unrealistic when they think that they are.

By the way, Von D, this is not a point I think that you miss. It's just something I get worked up about.

Most arrests are uneventful. Most people do not resist arrest. Most of the people who resist are interested in getting away, not engaging in a protracted fight. These people can be restrained or subdued with moderate effort. Hell, usually you can sweet talk or bully them into compliance. However, sometimes people decide that the most efficient way to get away is to hurt or kill you. Sometimes they have got into their heads that they plan to hurt or kill you long before they ever meet you.

Many of the things that we are taught in our Defensive Tactics classes are generally useless in a real confrontation. The mindset that they teach in the academy can get you hurt. We are drilled in all the restrictions and rules of polite discourse that our adversaries have long ago decided to ignore. The evidence to support that statement can be found in annual statistics for officers slain and injured in the line of duty.

In the Seattle Metro area, in the last few years, we have had officers killed with their own weapons during "routine arrests." What started as an effort to take someone into custody ended with a dead officer. That is what it means when it hits the fan. If those officers could have left a bloody spot on the sidewalk where that offender used to be, I would have celebrated the outcome. If officers are not exposed to the more brutal tactics for survival--albeit with the standard caveats attached-- then we have potentially sent them to their deaths in the interest of political correctness.

When I spoke about the traditional Japanese arts, I was saying that the Japanese understood that you could not end a violent confrontation by just holding someone's hand until they said "Uncle." That's great in a competition or the dojo, but real, pissed off people aren't having it. They were very realistic about what it took to stop someone who was trying to hurt or kill you. We seem to have forgotten some of that in our training today, with a few notable exceptions. I don't know what modern Japanese officers study or use. Actually, I wouldn't mind going on some kind of exchange to see what they do.

I just wonder why if you can trust an officer with a gun and a two thousand pound mass of hurtling metal, you feel you can't trust him with some knowledge that might save his life.

[FenrisUlf]

I just wonder why if you can trust an officer with a gun and a two thousand pound mass of hurtling metal, you feel you can't trust him with some knowledge that might save his life.

Maybe because it's cheaper to pay a dead officer's death benefits than it would be to pay off a multi-million dollar lawsuit because said officer broke a knife-wielding hoodlum's arm instead of geting stabbed?

He said cynically.

[Killer Shrike]

Thread drift, what?

[Korvar]

The point I want to make is this: The rules of engagement are not static, and people are unrealistic when they think that they are.

By the way, Von D, this is not a point I think that you miss. It's just something I get worked up about.

Most arrests are uneventful. Most people do not resist arrest. Most of the people who resist are interested in getting away, not engaging in a protracted fight. These people can be restrained or subdued with moderate effort. Hell, usually you can sweet talk or bully them into compliance. However, sometimes people decide that the most efficient way to get away is to hurt or kill you. Sometimes they have got into their heads that they plan to hurt or kill you long before they ever meet you.

Which is why you need a martial art with flexibility. From the sounds of it, Krav Maga doesn't have that. However, something like Aikijujutsu has everything from "gently redirect" to "tear their arm off and hit them with the wet end".

Military martial arts can be simple and brutal and direct - the only kind of interaction you have with the enemy is going to be deadly. Cops, on the other hand, have to have a huge spectrum of responses, because they have a huge spectrum of situations to deal with. They have to go from helping old grannies across the street to shooting someone in the head. So any fighting skills they aquire should have a similar breadth.

[lapsedgamer]

Thread drift, what?

I'm sorry about that. I'll leave it alone now. As I said, it's a subject I get very worked up about. I just don't think most people think about it realistically. I'm off the soapbox.