STR Minimum, Required Hands, etc.

[Simon]

OK, I'm putting this into a new thread as it's come up in several threads of late....

I talked to Steve today about the Limitations listed in the Equipment section of FREd (the ones that currently only exist in the heroic-level templates) and here's what we've come up with:

1. All of the Lims will be added to the normal-level templates.

2. Required Hands, Real Weapon, and Real Armor will be added to the Super-heroic templates.

3. Real Weapon and Real Armor will be added to the Base, Vehicle, and Automaton templates as well.

STR Minimum and Armor Weight are not particularly valid Limitations for Super-heroic campaigns (or for vehicles, bases, etc.). This doesn't mean that there can't be exceptions, but you can just use a Custom Modifier in those cases where the GM allows it.

So...I will have those adjustments made to the built-in templates for the next update.

Just so's you know

[Monolith]

Originally posted by dsimon
STR Minimum and Armor Weight are not particularly valid Limitations for Super-heroic campaigns (or for vehicles, bases, etc.). This doesn't mean that there can't be exceptions, but you can just use a Custom Modifier in those cases where the GM allows it.

Well I am glad somethings were added, but as the character examples in MC show, many of them are using the STR Minimum limitation; and quite a few of them at different setting levels. I guess I do not see the resistance to putting them in. It's just one more box for the players to either check or ignore. Ultimately it has no more signifigance than Beam or No Knockback in the template, but it does make adding that Limitation easier to the character.

If it is not there it is no big deal, but I don't think adding it as an option somehow changes the "scope" of the game or the software. Having it in there is just something which makes our lives easier.

[Simon]

It will be there for all normal- and heroic-level templates. It is used so rarely in superheroic level characters that Steve and I both feel it will be better to leave it out of those templates. This also matches the way it is written up in FREd:
<blockquote>
<i>In Heroic campaigns</i>, weapons have a STR Minimum which defines the minimum STR required to use them properly.</blockquote>

If you have a character in the super-heroic genre who you (and your GM) wish to apply the Limitation to, then use a Custom Modifier.

[misterdeath]

Well, I agree with the reasoning. I just hope that the people that write the suppliments remember that reasoning.

D

[Monolith]

Originally posted by misterdeath
Well, I agree with the reasoning. I just hope that the people that write the suppliments remember that reasoning.

The only bad thing about 5th Edition and HD seems to be a "do as I say, not as I do" attitude. Telling us it is not applicable for superheroes and then turning around and giving us a dozen character examples where it's used seems counter-productive and reminiscent of Hero Games pre-DOJ.

There's nothing we can do about it until the Powers-That-Be come to their senses, so I guess we just learn to accept it.

[Simon]

This is in no way the case here. We are trying to keep from confusing newer users of the system by limiting the available Modifiers to those that are generally considered "legitimate".

If you have a special case in which you feel that STR Minimum should apply to a super-heroic level character, then, by all means, TAKE IT. Just buy it as a Custom Modifier and call it STR Minimum.

If that's not good enough for you, then just edit your super-heroic level templates to include STR Minimum. It's just a copy/paste from any of the other templates.

[misterdeath]

We aren't commenting on the program. Which works just fine according to the rules as we know them. Which I for one just love.

We're commenting on the examples of pregenerated characters that violate the rules as we know them. I understand the need for flexibility to create what we need, to do the best power modeling we can, and in some cases it makes sense to have a Str Min on a weapon.

So, in all rights, Mon and My conversation should take place elsewhere, since it has nothing to do with Hero Designer.

It's an easy work around to put Nightwind in the computer with "Real Weapon" on his guns. No probs here on that.

I'm just not sure we should have to. Either it's applicable to supers, or as you've said, it's not generally applicable.

I don't want you to change anything about HD. I kinda want them to knock it off with "violating" the stated rules.

D

Point whoring rules lawyer.

[Simon]

Just a quick comment here: "Real Weapon" and "Real Armor" are applicable (and included) on all templates. It's STR Minimum and Armor Weight that are only part of the Normal and Heroic-level templates. Required Hands is only part of the templates for characters that normally have hands (i.e. Computers, Vehicles and Bases don't get it).