Is Hero Games responsive enough to customer feedback?

[Yamo]

This is something that's been troubling me lately.

A lot of HERO fans have been pointing out tons and tons of broken rules, wonky bits and generally unsatisfying treatments of various parts of the system under 5th Edition, but so far I've seen no official eratta or revisions to bring the game more into line with what the customer base is calling for.

Wizards of the Coast, whatever their other (economic) motivations, does seem to be genuinally listening to its fans and directly encorporating their feedback into the game rules. They wanted certain spells like Haste, Harm and the Polymorphs fixed and they got it. They wanted various major tweaks to classes like ranger and paladin and they got them. They wanted races to have built-in familiarity with their various racial weapons and they got it. There's a whole lot of major changes to virtually every fundamental system aspect that came about as a direct result of player complaints. D&D fans say "Jump" and WotC asks "How high?"

Now, if you contrast this with HERO, DoJ/Hero Games seems to be falling a little short. There's be absolutely nothing done to address the problems that so many seem to have with Damage Shield overcosting (most agree it's way too expensive), STR undercosting (10 points spent on STR grant 25 points worth of game effect), arbitrary Healing caps, the blind prohibition on Always On Growth/Shrinking, etc.

So why are some companies so eager to bring their games in line with what the fans want while others are so resistant to the idea? Isn't pleasing the fans the whole point? If most people hate the new Damage Shield, common sense says to restore the old one. "The customer is always right."

The fundamental question: Should DoJ/Hero Games take a more compliant and proactive stance to update their game sooner rather than later like WotC does, either with a "HERO 5.5" book or simple official online eratta?

I mean, why should fans of other games get their wants catered to while we get "FREd: Love it or leave it"?

[Killer Shrike]

Well, I support the idea that DOJ have the right to determine the rules, even when I dont agree with them. I figure the people involved have all made some significant sacrifices and obviously work hard on the game, and one of the ensuing perks is that they get to call the shots.


Also, unlike D&D where the system is "closed", in the HERO System if you dont like it, you are actively encouraged to change it for your own games.

[Chris Goodwin]

Part of the idea that the GM is the final defense against abuse is the idea that the GM (heck, the group as a whole) gets to change the rules if they don't like them.

There are no Game Police that are going to come take away your books if you change something.

Steve agrees with most if not all of the changes he's made, and I don't think that of the very few he might be having second thoughts over, he's going to change any of them. He's the one who got the investers together to buy Hero Games, he's the one calling the shots. If someone else buys Hero Games from DOJ then they'll call the shots. I didn't like many of his changes, but it's his prerogative, just as it's ours to ignore the parts we don't like.

[Talon]

Blargh. I take real offense to the tone of your post. You often post "controversial" statements and then calm down, but this one seems more deliberately provocative than polite discussion would permit. Perhaps that's not how it was meant, but that's how it sounds to me.

The changes for 3.5 are hardly everything that people have been clamoring for, and, while welcome, do nothing to fix significant portions of the system that are broken (e.g., metamagic, multiclassed spellcasting).

Moreover, the changes are secondary in nature; none of the basic mechanics are changing, just how they are applied. This means that a) people are not being forced to upgrade to 3.5, and b) 3 and 3.5 are rules-compatible. If this were not the case (say, if Skill points were replaced), people would be screaming to high heaven, and rightly so, about how their books and supplements were becoming useless.

I'll be the first to admit that the 4th -> 5th changes were relatively small compared to what could have been done. There are plenty of rules changes I would like to see made, and will be pushing for once the time comes around. In the meantime, changing basic rules would hurt the company by making much of their product line obselete and alienating the customer base. Imagine if Steve came out tomorrow and said STR costs 2x: every published character would be wrong, and thousands (if not millions ) of Hero customers would be pissed. Instead, the nature of Hero makes it quite easy for people who want change to make it themselves via house rules.

I sincerely hope that 3.5 succeeds and convinces Steve to do a 5.5 in a year or two, and that many of the now-debated rules issues are addressed. I think it would be a poor business decision to act sooner.

[Yamo]

Blargh. I take real offense to the tone of your post. You often post "controversial" statements and then calm down, but this one seems more deliberately provocative than polite discussion would permit.

Provacative to who? I operate under the assumption that the Hero Games staff are professionals and, as professionals, don't react to even drastic criticism of their business model as a personal attack. If I'm wrong about that, I'm wrong, but I don't suspect that I am.

The changes for 3.5 are hardly everything that people have been clamoring for, and, while welcome, do nothing to fix significant portions of the system that are broken (e.g., metamagic, multiclassed spellcasting).

Everything? No. Something? Yes.

And fixing Strength and Damage Shield wouldn't be changing the system's core fundamentally, either. Some costs would be different, but you'd still be buying stuff with points and doing 3d6 roll-unders to resolve stuff.

I sincerely hope that 3.5 succeeds and convinces Steve to do a 5.5 in a year or two, and that many of the now-debated rules issues are addressed. I think it would be a poor business decision to act sooner.

Perhaps.

Frankly, though, I made this post because I'm JEALOUS. Damn jealous, in fact. The idea of an RPG fanbase being catered to like that by the company, even if the action taken isn't complete or perfect yet, is really, really appealing. I'd prefer to see it as the industry standard: Rapid, widespread polling of fans and swift encorporation of as many of their suggestions and criticisms as possible into the rules canon.

Hey, I can dream.

[tiger]

While I can understand some of you points I think you over looking a few things.

Not every agrees that the prices or changes are bad or wrong. So by fixing the to suit some you ignore those that have no problem with it.

All stats have been the same since the 80 and now they under/over priced?

Could it be that perhaps Damage Shield was incorrect in the first place instead of the changes being wrong?

Now while I'm not saying this is the case or not, it is something to consider when saying the DOJ/Hero doesn't seem to have the concern of the player fully in mind. After all seems to me if they didn't there would be a Q&A section on the boards or the boards for that matter.

Frankly ,flame me if you like, I see 3.5 the proof that they put 3.0 out before they made sure it was ready to go. Perhaps the quest for money was more important that the quest to make a better game.

[Yamo]

Not every agrees that the prices or changes are bad or wrong. So by fixing the to suit some you ignore those that have no problem with it.

All stats have been the same since the 80 and now they under/over priced?

Could it be that perhaps Damage Shield was incorrect in the first place instead of the changes being wrong?

Perhaps, perhaps, perhaps. All I know is that the complaints are remarkably common. Why is that? How commonplace is this belief really?

So why not survey the fanbase in an organized fashion prior to deciding? Comment cards at conventions and sent out with books and possibly even online polling could all help here.

Find out what the majority of the fans want in as fair and concise a manner as possible and then do it ASAP. It's just common sense to me.

Listen more, act quickly and decisevely on what you hear. That's all I'm saying.

[Derek Hiemforth]

Originally posted by Yamo
A lot of HERO fans have been pointing out tons and tons of broken rules, wonky bits and generally unsatisfying treatments of various parts of the system under 5th Edition, but so far I've seen no official eratta or revisions to bring the game more into line with what the customer base is calling for.

I think you're severely overstating two things here. One, "tons and tons of broken rules." Two, "the customer base."

You don't mention "tons" of broken rules; you mention four. And of the four, the only one I think there's any kind of real consensus on is Damage Shield. And even there, there's only agreement (a strong majority, not unanimity even on this) that the current cost seems too high... there's no such agreement on how to "fix" it.

You mention "the customer base" as if it's some kind of contiguous thing. It isn't. There's lots of disagreement amongst Herodom Assembled on what they like, what they don't like, etc. And the slice of Herodom Assembled represented on the boards here is only a small fraction of Herodom Assembled as a whole. (For example, in my FTF group of nine players, only two of us ever come to herogames.com, even though everyone in the group is computer literate. And of the two who do frequent these pages, one has been MIA from the group lately, so it may actually be one out of eight at this point.)

Widespread recognition of which rules are working and which rules aren't comes only over time. When 4th ed. went to 5th, there were several rules that had a strong majority of players in favor of changing them. Aid was too cheap. HA needed a higher Active Point cost. Racial Characteristic Maxima were broken. Linked needed to be greatly clarified. And 5th Edition addressed all of those things.

It's too early, IMO, to be worrying about a new edition (or even a revised 5th edition). When the time comes, if the vast majority of players still think Damage Shield is overpriced (for example), I'm sure Hero Games will consider acting on that information. They're all reasonable folks.

[tiger]

Originally posted by Yamo
Listen more, act quickly and decisevely on what you hear. That's all I'm saying.

I can agree with this. I also beleive Hero has done a good job of this.

[Yamo]

You mention "the customer base" as if it's some kind of contiguous thing. It isn't. There's lots of disagreement amongst Herodom Assembled on what they like, what they don't like, etc.

Exactly. Which is why I recommended (above) widespread and at least semi-scientific polling both online and via comment cards in all HERO products that majority opinions can be firmly established and acted upon.

[Tempuswolf]

Originally posted by Yamo
The fundamental question: Should DoJ/Hero Games take a more compliant and proactive stance to update their game sooner rather than later like WotC does, either with a "HERO 5.5" book or simple official online eratta?

I mean, why should fans of other games get their wants catered to while we get "FREd: Love it or leave it"?

It is to laugh.

DOJ where the designer answers each and every rules question any fan cares to post. Hero Games where the motto is "Use these rules or not as you see fit to make your game work", with a section for changing the rules in its primary rulebook.

vs.

Just one word about WotC: Psionics

[Yamo]

It is to laugh.

Nobody said that WotC was a perfect outfit. I sure don't patronize them.

My position is only that its willingness to solicit extensive customer feedback and encorporate a significant portion of it into the official rules canon in a relatively quick fashion is admirable and should be emulated.

I can admire that about the company without endorsing other aspects of it.

[djday38]

Personally, I don't think the guys at DOJ could do much more if they tried.
People forget quickly how bad the previous company was, the years without any new product, the empty promises, etc,etc.

Since Steve & Darren have taken over we have a new product each month! and a high quality one each time.

Saying they are not responsive to their customer base is so out of order I can't believe anyone would even think it.
How often does Steve post to these boards?

I would rather look at the glass as nine tenths full than one tenth empty.

rgds
Dean

[MarkusDark]

I believe that DoJ does more than any other company to be responsive to its customer base. Their comments and replies to topics on this board have been phenomenal when compared to other company's Customer Support systems.

I, myself, had just recently asked a question about level pricing. I was more curious as to WHY it was done that way instead of if it should or shouldn't be, but eh, what can one do? The great thing about a toolbox system is that you can do what you want with it, when you want. They have an online Errata and FAQ when something needs to be better explained or a typo is found. Unlike Wizards of the Coast, DoJ is not a multi-million dollar company (hopefully, someday). They try their best to keep pricing down while giving the player the most they can for their money. If they offered a change, not only would every previous book they currently have printed now be an economic loss, but the MAIN problem I have heard D&D players making is "I have hundreds of dollars of books that are now going to be useless". I personally wouldn't want to piss off my customers like that.

If you don't like something, make a house rule and change it. One of my GM's refuses to use Megascale - uses 4.0's rules on Haymaker and even uses 2.0 rules on Reduced End costs.

To say that those of DoJ are not responsive to their customers is about the funniest thing I have ever heard.

[Yamo]

Personally, I don't think the guys at DOJ could do much more if they tried.

It's already been stated what they can do: Solicit opinions on problem areas and blind spots in the rules from the customers and then encorporate fixes for the most common complaints into the main rules in a relatively swift fashion.

Use comment cards. Use the internet. Use conventions. Get the data, use the data.

People forget quickly how bad the previous company was, the years without any new product, the empty promises, etc,etc.

The failures of the old company do not preclude criticism of the current one. Criticism of the current one does not constitute a rejection of the whole of its work.

but the MAIN problem I have heard D&D players making is "I have hundreds of dollars of books that are now going to be useless". I personally wouldn't want to piss off my customers like that.

But WotC still stands to make a mint off the whole affair, indicating that the majority appreciates the new revisions and will support them. The bottom line is that most agree they make the game itself better, and that end justifies the means many times over for most.

To say that those of DoJ are not responsive to their customers is about the funniest thing I have ever heard.

They're plenty responsive as far as supporting the existing rules, just not in one other key way that they should be: A willingness to undertake significant updates and changes to the rules in a timely fashion in response to customer feedback.