Mutants and Masterminds vs. HERO

[tesuji]

I gotta appluad monolith for perhaps the most biased comparison of MNM and HERo i have ever seen.

In MNM there are four outcomes that can come from a normal attack of the bash em upside the head that hits. These are (and their HERo counterparts are):
Stopped by defense (stopped by defense)
"Hit" (lose some stun or body.)
"stunned" (con stunned)
"KO" (unconscious)

Lethal attacks in MnM replace KO with disabled, which is an "on the verge of death."

The big difference is, in MNM i can get most of these rolls on any given hit. In hero, the odds are that, barring the stun lotto for killing attacks, in most cases your first couple attacks will yeild nothing but "loss of stun" and eventually you will get to "ko". you will rarely see con stun. you will rarely see stopped by defenses.

these assume comparable opponents.

HERO is much more akin to DND... you have a block of hit points and you can rest assured that a typical attack will not do enough to take out all your hit points at once. So, dont worry too much until you have been whittled down some.

In MNM you can choose when you fire your attack how much damage at a max you want to do. Monlith's post may make t seem like thats only in hero.

In MNM, you can give your character's combat choices cool names too. Monliths post may lead you to believe you can only do that in HERO.

In MNM when a nasty attack or a hail of attacks is coming in you MAY be able to dodge them (spend a hero point to increase defense), you may be able to deflect them (if you have the power that allows this) or (this departs from hero) you may be able to deflect them even if you don't have the deflect power already purchased by spending a HERO POINT to use a power you do have in a special way to deflect them on the fly. Monolith's post might have given you the notion that these things are only in HERO.

The single biggest difference is probably the hero point syste, Hero points recognize that while most rpg systems can do well in 90% or maybe even 95% of the cases, there will always be some rough edges and special circumstances. Hero points are a built-in limited number of uses mechanic which are intended to be helpful in many areas.

Did your main HERO just take a real unluckt hit and is about to go down... spend a hero point. How many do you have left.

HERo points in MNM in addition to the dodges and the rerolls on damage saves and the wake up quickly from Ko...also allow the on the spot funky one time use of my powers to do something special. In HERO, for the most part, its a case of "did you buy it beforehand" and if the answer is "no" then its tough luck. (The power skill in HERO5 is the vague first beginnings of adding this to their system.)

MnM allows you to spend a hero point to add an bit of an "extra" to your already existing powers.

Suddenly need to extend your force field to cover a friend... did you buy it? No!? Spend a hero point.

Suddenly need to extend your force field to block an incoming attack? Spend a hero point.

Suddnely need to use your firebolts to sweep an area or throw a fireball? Spend a hero point.

techincally its called extra effort and is tiring unless you spend a hero point.

Thats just a few.

HERO is MORE DETAILED. That does not means its better at details.

MnM uses a wider brush, does not cut too fine into range... range is touch or range is more often than not not an issue.

You tell me, do you see spidey in the comics fretting over whether he is 8 meters as opposed to 10 meters? Do you see vision lining up so he is within 32m as aoppsed to 40? or do you indeed see most often in comics the issue is "do i have to get to touch" vs "can i shoot him from range" and from there its a matter of terrain.

Comics are not "detail" oriented stories. They are not fine grained precisions.

MnM cuts a broader swath, basically saying "if its a big issue, make it worth points, part of accounting... but if its a relatively small matter, let it be within the GM's discretion realm." As a rough rule of thmub, HERo uses measurements in quarters... Mnm uses the equivalent of hero halves as their smallest unit. Most of the HERo quarters would probablty end up as just FX in MNM.

MNM basically treats things worth points as significant elements for the character. Kryptonite in MNM is seen as a significant thing for superman, something the character is almost completely wrapped around. It is an element crucial to his character and story. HERo sees that as just 25 of his 150 points of disads.

I hope i did not come off sounding too unbiased myself.

[Monolith]

Originally posted by tesuji
I gotta appluad monolith for perhaps the most biased comparison of MNM and HERo i have ever seen.

The only reason I responded to this thread at all was because your reply was so biased against HERO and for M&M.

The only mistake I made in my post was that there are 4 possible outcomes in M&M instead of 3. Everything else which I said was accurate. There are far more attacks available in HERO than there is in M&M. For example:

M&M Ranged Attack (Energy Blast):
Can be purchased 3 ways: Stunning (normal), lethal (killing), or Explosion (with explosive area).

HERO Ranged Attack:
Can be purchased as Energy Blast (stunning) or Killing Attack (lethal). On top of that each of those two choices can also be purchased as Armor Piercing, Explosions, Penetrating, No Normal Defense, No Normal Defense which Does Body, AVLD, or AVLD which Does Body.

I am not including the common modifiers which both game have such as Area Effect, Affects Desolid, etc.

So in M&M your ranged attack has 3 possible ways to be purchased. In HERO your ranged attack has 14 possible ways to be purchased; three of which are the same as in M&M. You can even get creative in HERO and include a Flash attack which Does Body to make an even stranger painful attack. That increases the number to 15. Now there might be one or two modifiers that I missed in M&M (I am not an expert on the system), but even 5 choices is a far cry from 15 choices.

The HERO System's diversity and options are its strength for many players. Many other gamers do not care about such things. Each gamer is unique. M&M's strength is that it is very fast. The attacker rolls his To Hit, the defender rolls his Save, and an outcome is determined.

As far as Hero Points in M&M, those are very cool. But it should be pointed out that the average character only has 5. If the character uses all 5 to keep from being knocked out in one combat, he is out of luck for the rest of the encounter/session in most instances. When someone only has 5 uses they should not have to waste them on just staying conscious because the game rules are heavily biased toward one or two hit knockouts, IMO.

If you are the type of gamer who does not care what the difference is between a Spinning Back Kick and a Spider Punch, and only considers it to be a visual difference but not a game difference, then M&M is for you. If you are a gamer who thinks a character chooses to do a Spider Punch at that moment in time because it is to his advantage to do so, then HERO is the game for you. It really is just that simple.

[zornwil]

I think tesuji and many others are distorting poorly the "weaknesses" of HERO and MnM. I'll see what I think after I've actually played MnM, but based on the rules and the "real world" experiences expressed on both boards I can't see a reason for people to get into the "ah-ha, this system CAN'T do it, not at all, it sucks!" mode. Both systems clearly model differently amd therefore have relative strengths and weaknesses (perhaps one system more than the other for the majority of peopel, who knows?).

(I edited because I sort of nit-picked on Monolith's comparison of advantages and extras but reread what he wrote and I stated it poorly, and rather than rewrite it figured it was just too nit-picky period)

[Monolith]

Originally posted by zornwil
I can't see a reason for people to get into the "ah-ha, this system CAN'T do it, not at all, it sucks!" mode.

I do not think anyone is in that mode. Both systems can do many things, but they come at it from different ends.

The HERO System is exceptionally complicated, but that complication comes from the player and GM having so many different options to choose from. M&M simplifies their game by not giving the player as many choices. You gain speed of play but you sacrifice detail of design. Both are equally valid ways to play. It is all subjective to the individual.

As I said in my initial post on this subject, if you like fast and lose games then either M&M or SAS is a better choice. If you prefer more detail and are willing to accept slower combats because of that detail then go with HERO. A "detail" player is not going to be happy playing M&M and a "lose" player is not going to be happy playing HERO.

Each gamer needs to decide for themselves which style of play they prefer before spending a great deal of money on a game system they might not like. In Jester's case he needs to know whether he prefers detail or speed, and once he makes that evaluation he can decide which game he wants to purchase.

[rowport]

Wow- this thread keeps going... and going... and going...

Anyway, a few pages back (!) I promised to come back and post again after a few more play sessions in M&M. Overall, my initial impressions are the same, but with some growing concerns with M&M.

Quick and dirty: Monolith's most-recent posts are really pretty accurate; for heavy detail HERO is the right answer, where M&M glosses over subtle distinctions. That is not really a criticsm of either (yet) so much as observation of style. I think his example of the type of punch (at the same power level) is right-on. So, for that, I really like M&M. Character generation is a breeze, lots faster than Champions. The problem that I am beginning to see with M&M is that cliche, "the Devil is in the details". IOW, there are some unintended consequences of the more-generalized character construction in M&M. Some of that might just be my relatively greater experience with Champions as a game system, but for whatever reason I am finding that I missed details in character construction of my NPC villains which are hurting them in combat. So, for that, I miss knowing with great precision exactly what each character can do, in HERO terms. Is that worth the extra time? Hmm... I am not sure.

Another perceived benefit for M&M versus Champions is combat simplicity. That is still partially true, particularly with a group already familiar with d20 rules, but less than my first impression. The problem is that combat results are randomized to the extent that Hero Points become a necessity on a regular basis; essentially, from a GM standpoint you should either bet that several of your villains will go down with one-punches, or regularly use Hero Points. But, I resist the idea of using them ruthlessly, because it feels too much like manipulating the players' results. I still think the idea of Hero Points is very clever (and really would fit in Champions as well) but I do not like the dependence on them in combat. The trade-off, of course, is that Champions can often be too predictable- villains of certain defenses are just plain unhurtable by lower-point heroes, and even if some damage gets through, combats can be long and dull with little surprises in the results. Here, it is the edge for M&M I (still) think, but narrower than I originally expected.

The short of this is that both games are quite good, and lots better than most other superhero games out there. (I have not played any of the .pdf games, though, so that is not included in the comparison.) Between the two, it is a very tough call. As a GM, I do believe that M&M is faster to run and prep, so that is an important factor. Certainly, the play style (detial versus loose) is the most important deciding factor, though.

[Nato]

Just subscribing.

[tesuji]

[/B][/QUOTE]

Originally posted by Monolith

The only reason I responded to this thread at all was because your reply was so biased against HERO and for M&M.

Wow! Cool! i haven't bee the "devil" in a "the devil made me do it" case in a long time. Sure, my weekly players call me "Stevil" and one player even has me voice tagged into his cell as "evil" but it never sucks to have my basic infernal nature get its just due.

Thanks, man.

And of course, Kudo's to the original "devil made me do it" guy, himself! Flip, we miss you.

Originally posted by Monolith

The only mistake I made in my post was that there are 4 possible outcomes in M&M instead of 3. Everything else which I said was accurate.

That depends on whether accurate to you means "factual" but can also include "misleading."

For example, to list deflection of incoming attacks as an option for HERO characters is FACTUAL. To list it, however, as an example in a pair of paragraphs where your purpose SEEMS to be to list and highlight differences in HERO and MNM, where you leave it out of the MnM list even though it appears in MNM as well, well that seems misleading. Its like you are trying to direct the reader to think that item, listed only with what you can do with HERO, is not an option in MNM.

Of course, if by your post the reader makes that conclusion, then he would be wrong because the power exists in both game systems.

MnM and HERO are not different in DETAIL you can play with. MNM and HERO are different in the degree of detail the ACCOUNTING system worries about and the degree of detail they leave to "just for fun" as part of the character. MnM leaves a whole lot of things that can make small differences to you , the player and the GM, to decide as part of "what do i want in my character for fun" and leaves them off the accounting ledger. What in HERo would be a pre-defined, pre-purchase, pre-detailed specific maneuver costing a set number of character points in MnM would be just one choice of many you make at the table in play after buying more general things.

In MNM if it is important to you to pre-define your spinning side kick as say -3 to hit, +1 to dodge and +2 to damage and your spider punch as +2 to hit +2 to defense and-4 to damage, then you CAN. However, after purchasing the basic feats needed to allow your character to make "on the fly" decisions about shuffling to hit, damage and dodge, then you simply sit down and write out specific combos for specific "blows." If it is important to your character to have this level of detail, MnM embraces it fully, it just allows it to be a matter of character and not a matter of accounting.

As a side note, spinning side kicn and spider punch are not defined for you in FRED, the big black book of HERO. They may be defined for you in either Ultimate Martial Artist, in Ninja Hero or in any of the other hero supplements. So if you took from mono the notion that these were anything more than colorful names tagged onto hero maneuvers, you may have been misled.

Do not be fooled into think that if the detail is not reflected in the accounting spreadsheet, that the detail doesn't exist. MnM sets the fine detail into the hands of the player and the GM, making it a CHARACTER decision not an accounting decision.

Originally posted by Monolith

but even 5 choices is a far cry from 15 choices.

10dc NNDs, NND do body, AP, AVLD etc... all thend to do "a little body" and around 14 stun (some average as low as 11 other as high as 18) against typical villains. With the variety in dice rolls, they will tend to KO the villains after 2-4 hits.

When the Gm throws at you a challenge which is particularly vulnerable to one of the type, or he throws a villain who is particularly resistant to another type, the differences will be seen in play.

A guy dropped in thre hits in hero suffered perhaps 15 stun, then 10 stun, then 25 stun and went down.

A guy dropped in MNM after three "hit" did not stop and figure out how much stun was lost on each hit. whether it was 15 stun then 10 or 20 stun and then 5 is treated as irrelevent accounting. what matters in MNM is that these "hits" did nothing more than make it easier for the next hit to Ko him.

The detail was irrelevent. The added detail gained us nothing except an added accountinf step.

Is there any difference in HERo between a character who dropped in four hits by taking 10, then 15 then 12 then 18 versus someone who took 17, then 21, then 7 then 10? Only different subtotals along the way.

MnMs approach is to let the interim results be just that... interim results. A "hit" represents in hero-speak some amount of stun loss thats not enough to Ko or stun you.

Stun and con stunning represent the same thing, momentary shock, but in MNM it is far more common than in hero.

Originally posted by Monolith

The HERO System's diversity and options are its strength for many players. Many other gamers do not care about such things. Each gamer is unique. M&M's strength is that it is very fast. The attacker rolls his To Hit, the defender rolls his Save, and an outcome is determined.

MnM is fast and flexible and can be as detail oriented IN PLAY as you wish it to be. it is not as detail oriented in its accounting.

Originally posted by Monolith

As far as Hero Points in M&M, those are very cool. But it should be pointed out that the average character only has 5. If the character uses all 5 to keep from being knocked out in one combat, he is out of luck for the rest of the encounter/session in most instances. When someone only has 5 uses they should not have to waste them on just staying conscious because the game rules are heavily biased toward one or two hit knockouts, IMO.

In most of my team on team combats, the heroes spend 1-3 hero points total in a fight. i should say typically, of course, because bad rolls can simply take their toll. of course, in hero when you fall prey to a bad roll, like say a stun loto jackpot for the bad guy, you may just be out of it. good time to run get drinks.

Originally posted by Monolith

If you are the type of gamer who does not care what the difference is between a Spinning Back Kick and a Spider Punch, and only considers it to be a visual difference but not a game difference, then M&M is for you.

In hero its an accounting difference. In MnM its a character difference, as detailed as you want it to be... in play.

Originally posted by Monolith

If you are a gamer who thinks a character chooses to do a Spider Punch at that moment in time because it is to his advantage to do so, then HERO is the game for you. It really is just that simple.

Except that, of course, the same guy in MnM simply chooses to use his feats to adjust his to-hit (ocv), defense (DCV) and damage (damage) to meet the needs and says "i throw my spider punch" too. If he felt earlier in the day that pre-defining his spider punch was important and needed to be specified, then somewhere in his character sheet or background he writes in "FoeSlayer prefers to sometimes use his spedier punch..." and writes down the pre-sets he feels are appropriate.

Did he have to prefigure this spider punch thingy when he built the character? Nope... he just bought some rather broad feats (AAA, PA, AA, Expertise, MBA = 10 points) that let him manipulate his OCV, DCV, and damage levels. then, if the detail matters to him... if its important for his character, if he thinks it will be fun... he has the OPTION of writing down as many neato "maneuvers" as he feels like within the scope of what his character can do. When he thinks of another one his character can do, while driving to the game, he just writes them down when he gets there and hopes for the chance to show them off... as opposed to whipping out the calculator.

in a sort of parting message... i will paraphrase what another very experienced gamer once said. It was in the midst of a discussion on something not too far afield from mono's focus here on martial arts maneuvers and attack differences and details... it was about gaming differences and details between fantasy weapons... like axes, swords (less damage more ocv), hammers (less damage more stun), etc etc etc.

This very experienced gamer, who did i think have some experience with hero, observed that that level of detail might well be able to "get in the way." he observed that for many people, and in fact in much fantasy lit, the "choice of weapon" was more or less simply a statement about the persona of the character. Whwther you wield a battleaxe with double curved blades and a wicked looking spike, a slim rapier, or a sturdy legion issued gladius is most often seen in the sources and in the eyes of the players as a style thing... it should not be a tactical decision weighing the in game mechanics of the weapons against the campaign norms and assessing the most value for the points spent. he mentioned something like just letting something as simple as one-handed weapons do X and two handed weapons do Y and leaving the whole axes vs swords vs picks as flavor as an example of a good thing.

This is, of course, paraphrased. I doubt its still on the boards and wished i had copied it.

Anyone care to guess who said it?

More detail in the accounting stage is NOT equivalent to more detail in play.

HERO does indeed drive you to make far more detailed decisions at DESIGN TIME. MnM allows you to make these decisions at RUN TIME. thats not a difference in detail... its a difference in focus.

Hero's balance is the same as MnM... the balance is determined by your character's abilities intersecting the challenges provided by the GM. More math at design time does not create more balance.

To make the simplest case i can from official sources...

for 24 points in hero, officially, published and CONFIRMED by direct response from Steve Long as the preferred way... I buy the ability to spend actions to boost my dex from 1-6 points for CV purposes only that only works when i am within a certain radius of my buddy.

Thats a random amount of dex up to 6 points, only in limited circumstances, only providing certain benefits of dex, only after spending actions to make it happen... for 24 points.

Or...

I can just buy +6 dex for 18 points and save myself 6 points, a lot of restrictions and requiring no actions.

Do not let anyone CONvince you into HERo = balance or that the lie that more math = better balance is true.

Balance comes from the intersection of the character's abilities and the challenges the GM throws of these, the challenges the Gm thows are the most significant. He controls the characters abilities as well.

Balance comes from the GM, not the points.

HERO realizes this, even if some of its disciples don't.

if you see spiderman as fretting about whether he can get to 16 meters from the bad guy or if he can just make it to 18 meters as your idea of what gaming a comic should be like...if you think that the relative frequency of aunt may getting in trouble and needing rescuing being with 25%, 62% or 90% should make the difference between and be weighed against you getting +0, +1, and +2-3 to hit with his webshooters or that this type of event should eve be pre-determined and set as a part of the ACCOUNTING system... then HERo will serve you better.

If thats not your image however of gaming a comic book spidey... then Mnm may be more your cup of tea.

*********************

Quickie note to keep focus... regardless of all these differences, i would NEVER recommend someone pick up the FRED and jump into DMing with it with a group who also lacks experiences with the system, HERO needs an experienced GM and that means you should, would be better served, by getting into a HERo game, a campaign run by an experienced GM, and getting a handle on things before you start GMing. i would say it is practically essential. FRED is not a game, HERO fans will point this out, it is a TOOLKIT for building a game. "The ultimate Gamers toolkit" if you believe its own cover.

So, for someone with NO experience with HERO, NO experience with MnM, then i would strongly recommend you pick up MnM and work with it if you want to GM.

Mono may disagree but thats not too surprising.

[JohnOSpencer]

Tesuji, a suggestion. Smaller, more easily readable posts. So I don't lose intrest half way through. You've made some good points. But I probably lose some by missing the ends of your post.

Second, as M&M is D20, I assume it is level based.

Third, does M&M have critical hits and fumbles?

John Spencer

[Evil Thoughts]

Originally posted by tesuji
Sure, my weekly players call me "Stevil"

I'd just call you "dumbass."

[tesuji]

[/B][/QUOTE]

Originally posted by JohnOSpencer

Second, as M&M is D20, I assume it is level based.

It is "level based" but not in the sense you may think.

Characters are built on 15 points per level. All the level does is provide a cap on certain purchase.

you cannot purchase a power to more than level , You cannot purchase a skill to more than level+3.

Basically think of it as sort of level = DC cap and you have the idea. XP is awarded as power points which you spend as you go along. It is not bunched together into a single "level up." When you have gained enough XP, your caps rise.

PCs start at level 10.

Originally posted by JohnOSpencer

Third, does M&M have critical hits and fumbles?

criticals occur on a natural 20 roll and add 5 to the damage OR provide you an automatic hit if the 20 would have missed. A natural 1 always misses. There are no specific rules for fumbles other than the miss.

[tesuji]

Originally posted by Evil Thoughts
I'd just call you "dumbass."

Wow!

I would have to say that if that were the case, i would not be able to keep you as a player for long in my group. Unless of course you meant that in the fondest of senses, a playful jest perhaps. See, i try and avoid confrontational situations with my players, so real animosity is a sure indication of a problem that either needs fixing or a clear sign of a separation needing to come.

I take my guys and gals "Stevil" and other plays on "evil" in good spirits, as they are offered, more as praise. In much the same light as when i tell my players after our most notorious punster has cut loose "hit him hard enough and i will let you level up?"

I joked with him one day at lunch that he and his wife, who also plays, should show up one night with his arm in a sling and she should hand me her new sheet and say "Shiva just leveled up!"

He laughed then looked serious and said "I don't know what;s scarier, that you just suggested that or that my wife suggested it to me two weeks ago!"

I nearly choked right then and there.

So, all in all, i will take your comment as an attmept by you at witicism or cleverness. otherwise it would just look like namecalling.

Thanks.

[Marcus]

I dont belive I read the whole thing!

Tetsuji, one question... what appreciable benefit do you anticipate for yourself in 'converting' Hero players into M+M players?

To the remainder of you... what benefit do you anticipate in defending HERO against the claims of Mr. Tetsuji?

Anyone whose this far into this thread is no doubt a heavy player of at least Hero, and possibly both systems, and ergo likely to be competent to form their own opinions.

As for ~my~ own opinions, they will remain my own... it is less painful than becoming involved in this debate...

But all parties involved are being rather silly. Let the thread die. Go play whichever game you like better.

[JohnOSpencer]

Originally posted by tesuji
criticals occur on a natural 20 roll and add 5 to the damage OR provide you an automatic hit if the 20 would have missed. A natural 1 always misses. There are no specific rules for fumbles other than the miss.

That is pretty much the reason I don't like D20. A straight one in twenty chance of failure. Its also the reason I don't like WEGs D6 system. I prefer rolling multiple dice, and ending up with a more average result. Less for the GM to fudge.

John Spencer

[Storn]

Originally posted by JohnOSpencer
That is pretty much the reason I don't like D20. A straight one in twenty chance of failure. Its also the reason I don't like WEGs D6 system. I prefer rolling multiple dice, and ending up with a more average result. Less for the GM to fudge.

John Spencer

MM is not quite that simple. Hero and Villain pts allow for re-rolls. There are enuff Hero Pts to allow for several re-rolls. It is built right into the system, it is THE key component of the game. Not an afterthought. So, yes, you as a PC have a automatic 5% chance of failure for every roll. But only if you choose to accept the roll... you can re-roll it if you need/want to.

The brilliance of the Hero pts is that only one Hero Pt may be spent a round. So, if you spend a Hero Pt to get a better chance to hit, expand a power, then you are open to retaliation. That feels "comic-booky" to me.

My players spend Hero Pts like water, fast and furious...as do I for the villains. It works great.

I'm a HUGE fan of the Hero Pts and bookkeeping of MM. I am able to handle many villains with ease... something I'm not capable of doing fast in Hero. I also have 1 "mimic" character and 1 "absorbtion" character now... both are much, much easier to handle the power aquisition bookkeeping in MM than in Hero.

MM is not "as" balanced as Hero. it suffers, IMO, from 1st Ed kinks. Incorporal, Protection and Armor are all too cheap. But so is Strength in Hero. Both games have balance discrepencies. MM needs some time to get out of its growing pains, but the core ideas are solid and I like them.

HOwever, I do miss the graininess, the range of manuevers and the impact of combat when it comes to low level supers, guns and martial arts... the area that *I* think champs works best. I had a firefight in the jungle last game, and a couple of times I missed the armor piercing, the Offensive attack etc, the rolling of 4d6 RKA. So don't think that I'm ignorant of Champions charms.

And while I appreciate spirited debate... I don't think we need to call each other dumbass... or to make such detailed, minute comparisons that my eyes glaze over. Both systems have something to offer, substantial things to offer. I continue to play both MM and Champs. I like both.

[Monolith]

Originally posted by Marcus
Tetsuji, one question... what appreciable benefit do you anticipate for yourself in 'converting' Hero players into M+M players?

Tetsuji is what Rod Currie described in a chat one night as a "Born Again;" and the name fits very well. Tetsuji has been Born Again into M&M and must now spend all of his free time convincing everyone of M&M’s virtues and converting them to the “light.” And just as in the religious sense Tetsuji will jump right into the middle of the “heathens” den and suffer all consequences trying to bring all of us lost souls into the divine as he sees it. As with most fanatics in that regard, Tetsuji is blind to the fact that we heathens are happy being who we are, in this case HERO System players, and have no desire to be part of his divine plan. If we did we would be on the M&M message boards. It is not like it cost money to join those boards or something.