Mutants and Masterminds vs. HERO

[Jeff T.]

Originally posted by Nato
OK, I think people are starting to believe that black and white means low production value. This is not the case. If you look closely at the layout in all three books, they do in fact use a very similar approach to Hero. Power descriptions, skills, combat, tables - all pretty much look like
Hero books. Heck, SAS even uses gradated fill tables - just like Hero. If you were to add color to all the images in any of the Hero books, you would see that the production of Hero material is just as high if not higher than the others. Yes, some of the older Hero artwork hasn't been as good as the stuff in SAS or M&M - but we've always had some VERY high quality artists and continue to be adding better artists and the image quality continues to increase.

Well, you are obviously more knowledgeable about that than I am. All I'm saying that is that a full color book makes the value to me better by huge amount. When push comes to shove it seems the one sticking point seems to be full color. Heck, I would've paid a small amount just for the excellent colorized Champions that you did Nato. The Super genre SHOULD be colorized. I've emailed Storn about this as well, IIRC he would love to be able to release his work for HERO in color. His stuff is great, but I don't think it came out well in grayscale/B&W. He seemed disappointed as well.

You are an artist yourself and seem to be much better informed in this area. If the production values are already pretty close, why can't an upgrade be made to full color?

[Monolith]

Originally posted by Nato
Monolith, why do you keep thinking Hero fans are leaving to go to SAS and M&M? Are you on some sites where there are people saying they no longer play Hero? Or are you making the assumption that because they used to post on the Hero boards and now they post on the M&M boards that they must not play Hero anymore?

I suggest you start reading from the beginning.

I am not saying that fans are leaving, though I know of some who have left. What I said was that dedicated fans are defensive because they have a fear that the fans will leave, and thus bring back the dark ages of the system. From that point everything just escalated into everyone thinking I am worried about the fans leaving. I was doing nothing but answering buzz's question as to why some game fans cannot get along when other systems are brought up.

[archermoo]

I'm kind of curious as to what production values that the people that think that Hero products have low production values are talking about. The books are well put together physically, the layout is excellent and easy to follow. Printing art that is black and white is not a low production value. I for one am glad that they don't print colour art in a rules book. I could see it in CKC maybe, but I buy rules books for the text, not for the pretty pictures. And personally I hope that they continue to print the books in softcover. MUCH easier to use that way. If it was practical to publish FREd in softcover I'd love to get a copy of it that way.

That being said, I'm still hoping that HERO at some point publishes the Leather Bound Hard Cover Full Colour version of FREd that Steve mentioned the possibility of oh so long ago. I'd happily pre-pay for that one.

[Jeff T.]

Originally posted by archermoo
I'm kind of curious as to what production values that the people that think that Hero products have low production values are talking about. The books are well put together physically, the layout is excellent and easy to follow. Printing art that is black and white is not a low production value. I for one am glad that they don't print colour art in a rules book. I could see it in CKC maybe, but I buy rules books for the text, not for the pretty pictures. And personally I hope that they continue to print the books in softcover. MUCH easier to use that way. If it was practical to publish FREd in softcover I'd love to get a copy of it that way.

That being said, I'm still hoping that HERO at some point publishes the Leather Bound Hard Cover Full Colour version of FREd that Steve mentioned the possibility of oh so long ago. I'd happily pre-pay for that one.

For my part, I don't think I said HERO has 'low' production values. If I did, I misspoke. They are acceptable, just not up to par with the competition IMO. They do get the best artists in the biz, but I don't think they are done justice in grayscale and B&W.

FRED is pretty much straight rules, I don't mind that it is B&W either.

[Nato]

Originally posted by Monolith
I suggest you start reading from the beginning.

I am not saying that fans are leaving, though I know of some who have left. What I said was that dedicated fans are defensive because they have a fear that the fans will leave, and thus bring back the dark ages of the system. From that point everything just escalated into everyone thinking I am worried about the fans leaving. I was doing nothing but answering buzz's question as to why some game fans cannot get along when other systems are brought up.

Gee, thanks for the suggestion.

You had a few posts that gave me the impression that you were stating fans were leaving. Earlier you'd mentioned fans that were posting to the other boards instead of here. I somehow got the impression that you saying they were leaving Hero altogether. My mistake.

[Nato]

Originally posted by Starlord
Well, you are obviously more knowledgeable about that than I am. All I'm saying that is that a full color book makes the value to me better by huge amount. When push comes to shove it seems the one sticking point seems to be full color. Heck, I would've paid a small amount just for the excellent colorized Champions that you did Nato. The Super genre SHOULD be colorized. I've emailed Storn about this as well, IIRC he would love to be able to release his work for HERO in color. His stuff is great, but I don't think it came out well in grayscale/B&W. He seemed disappointed as well.

You are an artist yourself and seem to be much better informed in this area. If the production values are already pretty close, why can't an upgrade be made to full color?

Oh, I was just adressing what I thought was a generalization people were starting to make - that lack of color + low production. They're not neccesarily the same. I'm a huge color fan myself. Color does ADD to a book's production value, but not having color doesn't mean "low production value." I guess what I think of when I hear "production value" is just something that is well crafted, thoughtfully designed, clear layout, etc...

As far as printing in full color - it is denitely more expensive. Green Ronin I'm sure had more financial backing to go ahead and print M&M in color than Hero would with one of their products. GR has several other product lines that seem popular. They also probablly predicted that a D20 based product, in the popular superhero genre, would sell very well and make their investment back.

Hero has talked about why they can't a this time print in color, even though everyone would like too. It all boils down to cost and profit.

[Agent X]

I really couldn't care less about color in a rulebook. I would like to see some color for supers illustrations that are in the books in some other format, say, on-line. Still, I think they get a little paranoid about people stealing the art. I'm not sure how anyone can make money without getting caught VERY Quickly, or how they are losing money for people to have colorful versions of the illustrations in CKC, for example, but maybe they are optimistic that market conditions will change and that people will pay just for those pictures. I don't see that happening.

[Monolith]

Originally posted by Agent X
I'm not sure how anyone can make money without getting caught VERY Quickly, or how they are losing money for people to have colorful versions of the illustrations in CKC, for example, but maybe they are optimistic that market conditions will change and that people will pay just for those pictures. I don't see that happening.

I think this has to deal with two issues: #1-the potential to lose some IP rights when artwork is spread around the internet. #2-the fact that DOJ might want to use some of that color art in a cardboard minatures set sometime in the future. If gamers have access to the art and a color printer they can easily make their own stand-up figures (I know I do), and thus limit the potential that gamers might wish to buy DOJ's figures at a future date.

Personally I would like to see them be a little more open with the art, and I'm greatful that Storn has posted some of it on his website for the fans. Of course I think we will be seeing more and more art on the Showdown website, and a lot of it is wonderfully colored by Natoman. So we can get some of it from there.

[buzz]

Originally posted by Nato
Hero has talked about why they can't a this time print in color, even though everyone would like too. It all boils down to cost and profit.

Color isn't the only issue.

I don't think that HERO has "low" production values, but I do think that:

a) Overall, the art could use a lot of improvement; newer products have been getting better and better

2) The layout, while very functional and generally clear, lacks a certain amount of flair.

I'm not saying that the books look bad, but they could look a lot better. If it were 1995, they'd be in good shape, but RPGs have come a long way since then.

There's nothing wrong with eye-candy. Eye-candy sells books.

[Agent X]

Originally posted by Monolith
I think this has to deal with two issues: #1-the potential to lose some IP rights when artwork is spread around the internet. #2-the fact that DOJ might want to use some of that color art in a cardboard minatures set sometime in the future. If gamers have access to the art and a color printer they can easily make their own stand-up figures (I know I do), and thus limit the potential that gamers might wish to buy DOJ's figures at a future date.

Personally I would like to see them be a little more open with the art, and I'm greatful that Storn has posted some of it on his website for the fans. Of course I think we will be seeing more and more art on the Showdown website, and a lot of it is wonderfully colored by Natoman. So we can get some of it from there.

Yep, I just wish game companies appreciated that sometimes the pace of production and the pace of gaming are different. If you give the players carrots here and there that enhances their enjoyment of the game. That makes them more excited about new products and more loyal. That means more of the players in a game actually buy more of the product line. The gain in having 1 in 30 hero players shell out money for cardboard heroes 3 years from now may not be worth the opportunity cost involved. After all, if 5 in 30 of those players play with free cardboard heroes and get that much more excited about Hero - don't wander off - and buy one more book every 3 years... Well, how much more profit is available?

I was in sales for quite awhile and I know one simple rule - keep people happy and excited (enough to gush at others not wise enough to use the product) about your product - not merely satisfied.

[archermoo]

Originally posted by buzz
Color isn't the only issue.

I don't think that HERO has "low" production values, but I do think that:

a) Overall, the art could use a lot of improvement; newer products have been getting better and better

2) The layout, while very functional and generally clear, lacks a certain amount of flair.

I'm not saying that the books look bad, but they could look a lot better. If it were 1995, they'd be in good shape, but RPGs have come a long way since then.

There's nothing wrong with eye-candy. Eye-candy sells books.

I'll agree that I haven't liked every peice of art they've had in the books, but I think all of it has been of good quality. Some of it just hasn't been in a style that I like. And personally I'm just as happy with a lack of "flair" in the layout of the books. I'm interested in clear, functional and easy to use, not showy.

I don't object to eye-candy, I'm just more interested in substance.

[Jerry A!]

Originally posted by Monolith
My mistake. When you said:

Originally posted by Jerry A!
If people are jumping ship, then that means that MnM is providing something Hero isn't. As a "community" and as a company, the focus should be meeting players' needs if possible.

What you meant was that DOJ should watch the event happen, but not actually take steps to alter their plans to avoid it?

I don't think you meant that.

Very much your mistake. You're absolutely right that this is not what I meant. If you would bother to correctly quote in the entire context of the message, then you would have also included the following:

Originally posted by Jerry A!
But I am saying that there is obviously an uncaptured part of the market. If you want to see that 5000 number grow, that's where it'll have to come from.

And maybe the best way to do that is to measure Hero against the competiton and be honest about the results, warts and all.

Or did you mean that the company should do something to try and meet the needs of the individuals who are leaving, to keep them from leaving?

I think this is what you meant in the paragraph. Find out why the players are leaving and focus on meeting players' needs.

So if you are saying DOJ should take steps to stop this trend by focusing on the players' needs, you must mean that they need to change something that the leaving fans do not like about the HERO System to make it more useful to those fans?

Actually, I never talked about bailing players. They're usually a lost cause. In this entire thread I've talked about untapped market potential. Why are people not playing Hero. If Hero wants to grow (and I believe that it does, this is after all a business as much as it is a hobby), then it needs to see what it can be doing better.

You are however reading way too much into my words. In fact, I find it odd that you're only reading in what supports your point. So, if I haven't been clear enough, I'll say this one more time.

THE HERO SYSTEM DOES NOT NEED TO BE CHANGED.

Let me repeat that just to be on the safe side.

THE HERO SYSTEM DOES NOT NEED TO BE CHANGED.

Because I have already given 4 examples of what fans do not like about the HERO System, and you did not give any other examples I could only assume that when you responded to me you were also responding to my examples. The only way to correct my examples is by changing certain aspects of the rules. This mean writing alternate rules; unless you have other things which you think need changing which do not require writing?

Which all gets back to my whole point of: If steps need to be taken, what are those steps?

You assume too much. I'll assume that's because you didn't bother paying attention to the rest of the stuff I said. So, I'll go through them one more time for you.

The UNTIL Sourcebook is something that newbie players have been clamoring for. Heck, even some veterans.

The toughest sell on this product will be people asking why as a beginning player they'll need to buy FREd, Champions and the UNTIL sourcebook. But that's out of scope for this discussion.

I also said that the unprecented move of publicly asking for input on the contents of FH and the UNTIL sourcebook definitely a good move. What better way to find out what players want than by asking them?

As for combat, I already posted a suggestion in another thread. But I'll reiterate it. Newbie players need a good, annotated sample combat of moderate complexity to walk through. The best example that I can think of was in either a Star Wars Gamer or Dragon Magazine shortly after 3e was published.

In said article, a small battle was detailed with multiple players. It covered the most common combat situations. And it provided page references to the rules and explained some of the logic behind the tactics. It provided an excellent example for the feel of how combat worked in the system.

Ever player that I've had read it swears it makes it easier to understand the rules once they see them applied from start to finish.

Hero needs that!

The combat rules are 62 pages long. That is very daunting for new players. Don't change them. But give them something a little leaner to start chewing on.

These are the things that many of the new players I've exposed to the system complain about. I'm sure that there are other things but I'm not the one to speak to those issues.

[Nato]

Oh, you are SO right about Hero needing an example combat session in one of it's books!!! That would be HUGE help to a newbie. And probablly many established players. The BBB had a great intro to playing Hero section. Almost like a "quick start" section. It explained the basics of the rules. At the end of the rules section, it also had two or three pages that had a short, detailed combat session. I believe it featured Ogre, Crusader and Starburst. I'm glad I still have my copy of it. But since this 5th edition will be the first time many players are introduced to the system, I definitely think something like this would have been a very big plus.

Maybe it would not be too late to include something like this in the UNTIL Powers book. Maybe call the section "Superpowers in Action" and thus integrate it with the theme of the book while being an invaluable resource to new players and GMs. For new players playing under an established GM this isn't as much of a problem, but for new GM hoping to start this game with other newbies, it seems like a must.

[Nato]

OK, you guys all want to know the REAL reason Hero is the BEST superhero game out there?

Our Incredible Hulk has FOUR arms!!! Yeah baby!

<-----------------------

[Jerry A!]

Originally posted by Nato
Oh, you are SO right about Hero needing an example combat session in one of it's books!!!

Thanks.

Maybe it would not be too late to include something like this in the UNTIL Powers book. Maybe call the section "Superpowers in Action" and thus integrate it with the theme of the book while being an invaluable resource to new players and GMs. For new players playing under an established GM this isn't as much of a problem, but for new GM hoping to start this game with other newbies, it seems like a must.

I would suggest not making players pay for this. Maybe a DH article where this is one of the freebies that's posted for download.