Battle of the Costumed Crimefighters!

[Kevin Scrivner]

Yet another poll! Let's go to the other end of the power spectrum. What about Lee Falk's The Phantom vs. the original 1939 Blue Beetle? Which of these mystery men do you think would come out on top?

The Ghost Who Walks is a jungle ruler who has a pair of .45 automatics, jungle-trained reflexes, a faithful dog, limitless wealth, and (at least in the jungle) a network of assistants.

Blue Beetle is a promising criminologist who sports a costume of bullet-proof metallic mesh, has the strength and vitality of 10 men thanks to a dose of Formula 2X, and has the scientific assistance of the kindly chemical genius down the street. He rarely carries a gun while in costume.

Both are good in hand-to-hand combat. The Phantom is a scientific fighter trained in boxing and wrestling while the Blue Beetle is a brawler who relies on his enhanced strength to take down opponents.

Both are competent detectives. The Phantom uses his jungle stealth to eavesdrop on the bad guys. Blue Beetle has had formal police training in seeking and identifying clues.

In the costume department both are fashion disasters, but at least The Phantom can claim to have come up with the longjohns and mask getup first.

[SirViss]

Where is the poll?

[Acroyear]

They fighting in the jungle?

Having anyone fight the Phantom in the jungle is like putting Jimmy Olsen against Aquaman on the ocean floor...

[Agent X]

Blue Beetle, except in the jungle.

[Kevin Scrivner]

Maybe it would help the comparison if we put it in Champions terms.

The Beetle's strength and vitality of 10 men translates to a 28 STR and CON. So he has a 5 1/2 D6 punch and enough END to keep fighting for a while. But his agility isn't necessarily extraordinary, so his base Combat Value could easily be 5 with a SPD of 3.

The Phantom's jungle reflexes would give him maybe a SPD of 4 or 5 and a base CV 6 or 7 with bonuses for martial maneuvers and skill levels. The maneuvers would increase his damage to match that of the Beetle even if his STR maxed out at 20 or 23.

Defense might be the determining factor. The Phantom is tough (10+ PD) and probably has defensive combat skill levels. He'd try to outmaneuver the Beetle and avoid getting hit until he could land a telling blow. I'm assuming he wouldn't use his gun skill levels to shoot the Blue Beetle in the face. He IS a hero, after all.

The Beetle's armor, on the other hand, might enable him to soak up any punishment the Phantom could dish out. He might be able to endure repeated blows while he waited for a lucky grab or punch of his own. If he managed to get the Phantom in a bear hug, the battle would be over quickly.

I agree that the location of the battle would influence the outcome. In the city, the Beetle knows his way around but the Phantom might have access to tear gas or electricity, both of which can get through the armor. In the jungle, the Beetle would literally be sunk if the Phantom tricked him into swampy territory; that mesh armor is heavy enough to prevent him from swimming with it on.

[Rage]

I think... I think... I think.... (sorry but its been along time since I last thought)

What the phantom has which he could use in a fight.
1. 2 Colt 44's
2. Jungle honed physiuqe (increased CON, STR, DEX, all of which I assume are in the high 20's low 30's & a speed of 5-6)
3. Actual combat training + years of experience (Huge CSL's)
4. Untold riches
5. A dog
6. Smarts hardened by rough & tumble live or die trying life of jungle hardship & battling pirates and APE men.
7. The ability to fight first almost always.

What the Blue Beatle has to my knowledge
1. Super Strength (80- STR of 10 average men= 8x10)
2. Super CON & BOD (again like a huge amount again near 80's)
3. BODY ARMOUR, this stuff stops bullets stops punches even stops dog bites.
4. A 20's trained police brain.
5. Access to a gun.

Now this seems to be a proto Batman vs Superman fight.
If they both have time to prepare I would give the fight to The Ghost Who Walks. He would have to think hard to find a way to take down this metal clad avenger. And with that much cash he could get mustard gas, electricity or even a proper bomb that could total the armour.

In the jungle even though the Blue Beetle can move comfortably in his mesh (he has got 80 str) the ground wouldn't be able to hold him, he would be limited severly. And even on the best of days Spiderman would have trouble beating the Phantom in the Jungle. Blue Beatle wouldn't have a chance.

If it was a straight Ohh crap some masked avenger is attacking me fight I would give it to the Blue Beetle.
THe Phanoms Guns wouldn't work and he would actually have to use wrestling holds & throws on BB to hurt him as a direct punch wouldn't hurt him even through the mesh. And even then with his whopping great CON and BOD it would take minutes to take him down and BB is a brick. If he manages to grab one of the phantoms limbs he would crush him literally.

Ofcource these two people would realise before they killed each other and then thy would go beat up the bad guy, but that isn't fun.

Speaking of the Phantom: Anyone read that kicking Mandrake Phantom story in one of the latest Mags?
I loved it!
But I would...

[Koshka]

Originally posted by Kevin Scrivner
Defense might be the determining factor. The Phantom is tough (10+ PD) and probably has defensive combat skill levels. He'd try to outmaneuver the Beetle and avoid getting hit until he could land a telling blow. I'm assuming he wouldn't use his gun skill levels to shoot the Blue Beetle in the face. He IS a hero, after all.

Personally I'd give the Phantom some Combat Luck as well, though in a straight slugfest that probably wouldn't be enough to balance BB's armor.

[Acroyear]

Rage,

STR doubles every 5 points. So the Blue Beetle has a STR of 28ish (assuming it's "ten fit men" and not "ten athletic men" or "ten strong men") . However, this isn't even "superhuman" in Champions terms (which doesn't start until 31). So you can feasibly add up to 20 STR to that total since the ten men he's supposedly as strong as don't have STR scores listed for us to start doing our multiplying.

Nor does BB weigh tons or anything that would prevent him from moving normally in an environ like the jungle.

I don't think it would be unreasonable to give BB a "pugilism" kind of martial art and a couple levels. Nor do I think a SPD of 4 would be out of line, maybe even a five if an experienced version. In Champions terms, a SPD 4 is no longer "as fast as people get." Remember, he's got that law enforcement background... he's not just a pencil pusher or lab monkey... and he runs around beating up mobs of thugs with his fists.

The Blue Beetle, neither, was a member of the fab four. lol But if he was, he could have used mobs of screaming teenage girl fans...

While investigating a dope ring, Dan Garrett wounded by a gangster's machine gun, and laid near-death in the hospital. He received a visit from Dr. Franz, who had a plan to save Dan's life.

Dr. Franz administered a strange treatment. Dan was given the secret experimental vitamin 2X, a super drug that endows its recipient with super strength and healing abilities, increased speed, heightened senses, and enhanced intellectual capacity. Under the drug's influence, Dan Garrett rapidly recovered from his injuries, and returned to the street the next day.

also

There was a brief period in the late nineteen-forties when Blue Beetle would often gain extraordinary powers at the whim of the writers. One story might show the character flying, then the next may show him growing to giant proportions, or shrinking to miniature size.

and to keep Devil busy...(probably by eating)

Sparkington J. Northrup became Blue Beetle's boy sidekick in August of 1942. He wore a simplified version of Beetle's costume and called himself Sparky.

While thousands of children were being evacuated from England to the United States to protect them from threats from Europe, Sparky would make the opposite journey. He faced the front lines of the war alongside Dan Garrett who was then working as a special intelligence operative.

I still give it to the Phantom in the jungle though. It's damn hard to steal his thunder.

[FlyBoy]

I'm speaking out of sheer favoritism, but I'd give it to the Phantom, and he would win either by outthinking him, or sic-ing his wolf, Devil, on him.

[TheImperialKhan]

I don't know anything about the original BB so I'll refrain from voting but I was wondering...

How many of you saw the Phantom movie that came out a few years back with Billy Zane as the Phantom and a young Catherine Zeta-Jones?

I really enjoyed this movie. It was just about perfect as a Pulp-Style popcorn flick. I just wish it had done better at the box office. I would have loved to have seen them make more of them. Just shows you what bad timing and no advertising can do to a great movie

BTW has anyone tried to run the Phantom as a Champions or JI character?

[Rage]

Originally posted by Acroyear
Rage,

STR doubles every 5 points. So the Blue Beetle has a STR of 28ish (assuming it's "ten fit men" and not "ten athletic men" or "ten strong men") . However, this isn't even "superhuman" in Champions terms (which doesn't start until 31). So you can feasibly add up to 20 STR to that total since the ten men he's supposedly as strong as don't have STR scores listed for us to start doing our multiplying.

Nor does BB weigh tons or anything that would prevent him from moving normally in an environ like the jungle.

I don't think it would be unreasonable to give BB a "pugilism" kind of martial art and a couple levels. Nor do I think a SPD of 4 would be out of line, maybe even a five if an experienced version. In Champions terms, a SPD 4 is no longer "as fast as people get." Remember, he's got that law enforcement background... he's not just a pencil pusher or lab monkey... and he runs around beating up mobs of thugs with his fists.

The Blue Beetle, neither, was a member of the fab four. lol But if he was, he could have used mobs of screaming teenage girl fans...

While investigating a dope ring, Dan Garrett wounded by a gangster's machine gun, and laid near-death in the hospital. He received a visit from Dr. Franz, who had a plan to save Dan's life.

Dr. Franz administered a strange treatment. Dan was given the secret experimental vitamin 2X, a super drug that endows its recipient with super strength and healing abilities, increased speed, heightened senses, and enhanced intellectual capacity. Under the drug's influence, Dan Garrett rapidly recovered from his injuries, and returned to the street the next day.

also

There was a brief period in the late nineteen-forties when Blue Beetle would often gain extraordinary powers at the whim of the writers. One story might show the character flying, then the next may show him growing to giant proportions, or shrinking to miniature size.

and to keep Devil busy...(probably by eating)

Sparkington J. Northrup became Blue Beetle's boy sidekick in August of 1942. He wore a simplified version of Beetle's costume and called himself Sparky.

While thousands of children were being evacuated from England to the United States to protect them from threats from Europe, Sparky would make the opposite journey. He faced the front lines of the war alongside Dan Garrett who was then working as a special intelligence operative.

I still give it to the Phantom in the jungle though. It's damn hard to steal his thunder.

For the weight I was referring to the mesh.
Now if you've ever been in thick bush with a large leaf layer you notice that you can sink a little (Im just under 100kgs) now I always considered the mesh to be big heavy (and he could wear it because he was super strong) but I had read one story.

And my bad about the Str. hes still uber strong and stronger than 10 men which should be way over "ncm"

I counted him solwer than the phantom (who I esimated at spd 6) and I even though he could have a rudimentary rough and tumble style I feel that the Phantoms martial arts are far in superior to his "skills."
But I've defended Phantom against Batman...

[Acroyear]

Well, assuming the suit even weighed 50lbs... which is quite a bit for skintight armor, his extra strength means that little bit of sinking isn't going to slow him down, imo.

The Phantom's martial arts are probably quite similar to Blue Beetle's. He might be better versed in the sweet science, but there is a bit of boxing training going on with a lot of cops back in those days (and I assume BB was pretty skilled to give up his pistol for the fisticuffs). Although to base it on the illustrations, I'd call what BB does more of pugilism than boxing and wrestling (although he does toss guys around quite a bit). His enhanced stats might balance it out on neutral ground. To be honest, I'd still give a SPD edge to Phantom just for the jungle mystique as the Beetle's "enhanced speed" I would assume to mean movement.

I don't know of any references to BB's healing factor really kicking in a whole lot during a fight... but he bounces back fast. I could be wrong there.

I'm still giving it to the Phantom It's just not going to be a punk down.

[starblaze]

Maybe it would help if we had some Champions write-ups of these characters? Or at least an outline.

[Kevin Scrivner]

The write-up isn't completely finished but here's what I've got so far on the Blue Beetle. I went with "the strength of 10 fit men" approach based on the 1940 radio show; in the episodes he's strong enough to slap thugs around fairly easily but not strong enough to tear through walls or throw cars around.

Name: Blue Beetle (1939)

Val Char Cost
28 STR 18
15 DEX 15
28 CON 36
20 BODY 20
18 INT 8
15 EGO 10
20 PRE 10
16 COM 3
15 PD 9
15 ED 9
3 SPD 5
15 REC 6
56 END
43 STUN

Characteristic Rolls: STR: 15-, DEX: 12-, CON: 15-, INT: 13-, EGO: 12-, PER: 17-
Run: 13", Swim: 7", Jump: 5-1/2", Lift: 1,200 kg

Cost Powers END/Roll

17 "Chain Armor," Armor 10 PD/10ED, -1/2 Limit OIF Costume, -1/4 Limit Activation 15-
14 "Abnormal Vitality," Running 7" (Total 13")
5 "Abnormal Vitality," Swimming 5" (Total 7")
12 "Keen Senses," +4 with All Perception
7 "Enhanced Mentality," Mental DEF 10

Cost Skills, Talents, Perks Roll

3 Acting 13-
3 Breakfall 12-
3 Bureaucratics 13-
3 Climbing 12-
3 Combat Driving 12-
3 Concealment 13-
3 Contortionist 12-
3 Conversation 13-
3 Criminology 13-
3 Deduction 13-
3 Interrogation 13-
2 AK: York City 11-
2 KS: Criminal Law 11-
2 PS: Policeman 11-
3 Mimicry13-
3 Riding: Horses 12-
3 Shadowing 13-
3 Stealth 12-
3 Streetwise 13-
2 Familiar with Small Arms
1 Familiar with Police Baton
15 +3 Levels with Hand-to-Hand Combat
20 Perk: Vehicle, Fast Car
10 Perk: Contact 14-: Dr. Franz, chemist/pharmacologist, extremely useful skills and resources, loyal to Blue Beetle
2 Perk: Local Police Powers (as Dan Garrett)

200+ Disadvantages

15 Social Limitation, Secret ID: Daniel Garrett, rookie policeman
10 Distinctive Features: Leaves Beetle Insignia At Crime Scenes, easily concealed, always noticed
15 DNPC 11-: Mike Mannigan, normal partner, useful skills, unaware of Garrett's adventuring persona
10 Reputation 11-: Ruthless Vigilante
20 Psychological Limitation: Tries to Obey the Law, Won't Harm Police
20 Hunted 11-: The Police (as Blue Beetle), more powerful
10 Watched 8-: Local Police Department (as Dan Garrett), more powerful


OCV: 5 (8 with HTH Combat); DCV: 5; ECV: 5; Mental Def.: 10; Phases: 4, 8, 12
PD/rPD: 15/10 ; ED/rED: 15/10

Costs: Char.: 149 Disad.:
Powers: + Base: + 200
Exp.: +
Total: = Total: =

Source: "Mystery Men Comics," Fox Features Syndicate, 1939; "The Blue Beetle," syndicated radio show, 48 episodes, 1940.

Background:

Young Dan Garrett followed his highly decorated father into law enforcement after the elder Garrett was gunned down by mobsters. He quickly distinguished himself as a rookie patrolman. Despite his dedication to upholding the law, Garrett began to see the limitations of the criminal justice system and to chaffe under the tediousness of its processes. When he expressed his frustrations to Dr. Franz, who operated an apothecary shop on his beat, the chemist supplied Garrett with a suit of blue mesh "as flexible as silk but more impervious than steel." Instead of wearing it beneath his uniform, Garrett began slipping it on when off duty and stalking criminals the law hadn't been able to catch. He adopted the name "Blue Beetle" because the armor reminded him of the metallic blue carapaces of beetles he'd seen at the York City Museum.

He nearly emulated his father's death while he and partner Mike Mannigan were confronting dope peddlers on the street. Occupants of a fast-moving sedan machine-gunned both Garrett and the drug pusher he was grappling with. The crook died immediately. Garrett lay in the hospital for days, so weak that physicians were afraid he wouldn't recover from the removal of bullets. Dr. Franz slipped into his room at night and made him eat a tablet of Formula 2K, an experimental substance Franz promised would give him the strength to survive. Garrett was back on his beat the following afternoon, fully healed and eager to locate the drug ring. MORE

Powers and Abilities:

Garrett was an athletic and capable police officer even before he ingested Formula 2K. He is an effective investigator and has a good knowledge of his home city and its residents. The vitamin supplement gave him "enhanced mentality, keen senses, and abnormal strength and vitality." He is now ten times stronger and healthier than an ordinary man. The mesh armor supplied by Dr. Franz is capable of deflecting most small arms fire. The Blue Beetle occasionally makes use of other gadgetry provided by the pharmacist but his only regular equipment besides the armor is a fast car he bought at a police auction.

In combat, the Blue Beetle is a brawler rather than a scientific fighter. He relies on intimidation and enjoys bashing a few heads together to gather the evidence he needs to convict a malefactor. He is perhaps too confident in his armor's ability to protect him because he's used to battling thugs packing conventional firearms. This has caused him to fall before more thoughtful villains armed with tear gas and electric stun guns. Dr. Franz has since insulated the armor against electric shock.

Disadvantages:


Height: cm ( ' "), Weight: kg ( lbs), Sex: Male, Race: Caucasian

Appearance:

Dan Garrett is an athletic man in his twenties. He usually wears his York City police uniform. After he partook of Formula 2K his boyish voice grew deeper and his face and physique became more mature. As the Blue Beetle, Garrett dons a blue metallic mesh bodysuit that covers everthing but his face. The costume includes a black mask that covers the upper half of his face, red elbow-length gloves, and a wide red belt.
=======
Hero System write-up by Kevin Scrivner

[Acroyear]

Remember that cars were a LOT heavier back then, too (see above notes that we don't know what "strength of ten men" really means. Ten average men? Ten adventurin' men?). I'm happy with a 28, though (even if not "superhuman").

Also, remember that the guns being carried around back then weren't 9mm... he shouldn't be getting knocked out by a few shots from a .45

I'd give him another SPD pip. I mean, a street brawlin' thug probably has a three above a schoolteacher's 2.

Of course, BB's powers fluctuated a lot during his career. Overall, I like this sheet