Spell Idea: Frost-Locked Hands

[lynnlefey]

So, I have been tinkering with a low powered spell for wizards to use against other wizards, and came up with this...

Frost-Locked Hands
Entangle 1d6, 1 DEF (Standard effect, 1 BODY, 1 DEF), Takes no Damage from Non-Heat attacks (+1/2) (15 Active Points); Set Effect, Hands Only (-1), Requires Magic Roll (-1/2), Cannot Form Barriers (-1/4), Incantations (-1/4)
Real Cost 5

After casting this spell, the target's hands are covered in a numbing frost which does not melt naturally.

This is to wreck any spell the wizard has with 'gestures' as a limitation, which I've made virtually mandatory in my game.

First, note that the Takes No Damage limitation is actually bought at the "All Attacks" level, even though the special effect should allow heat/fire to get rid of it, but since that was only one special effect group, it seemed that the "All Attacks" level was most appropriate.

Now, Turakian Age magic is bought at 1/3 cost, so this spell would only cost a caster 2 points to purchase. And for 2 points, you get to screw not just wizards, but virtually every character class that requires the use of their hands... which is pretty much all of them. Did I just stumble across a massively abusive spell, or am I missing something?

If you purchase an entangle with "takes no damage from all attacks", well... then... how do you ever get rid of it?

Since this is an attack power, you attack the target normally, but the limitation is applied of 'Set Effect, Hands Only' where you normally have to take massive penalties ot target hands specifically. Well, yes, I understand that without the limitation, the spell would also make them incapable of walking, moving their head, etc. So, I guess I can accept this particular limitation as viable.

And, heaven forbid I add 'Line of Sight', and 'Area of Effect, one hex' advantages, which would only boost Real Cost to 8 (and Turakian Age cost to 3 pts.) and make all attacks with it against DCV 3.

In short, it just seems that the cost is not nearly as high as its usefulness would dictate. Any thoughts?

[Markdoc]

Just a point: "takes no damage" means you can attack the entangled person, without damaging the entangle, not that the entangle can't be damaged - with 1DEF, 1 Bod, most people could easily break out, though it would cost them an action. A mighty-thewed warrior could usually break out with casual STR.

However, for 2 points it *is* a wee bit abusive (it could mess up a lot of magic-users) and as you point out it can cheaply be boosted to the point where it is *really* abusive: but that's a problem with the Turakian magic system, rather than the construct itself - abusive builds are more or less guaranteed with the /3 system.

cheers, Mark

[Rapier]

What the doc said.

A 1 BODY, 1 DEF Entangle will be destroyed by an attack that does 2 BODY. A 10 STR wizard will break the Entangle virtually every time. Yes, he will lose his action (since he would have to use his full STR and not casual), but that's about it.

I understand what you are trying to accomplish and there isn't an easy way, off the top of my head, to do so. Entangle is not a bad construct, but it certainly doesn't strike me as the frost covered fingers you described.

Perhaps a DEX Drain, only for manual dexterity (-1 1/2)? It isn't unreasonable to expect that build to impact skills with Gestures.

[lynnlefey]

Rapier, the description of Entangle specifically states "restrain, immobilize, or paralyze" which the exact intent of the spell. I know its not how we usually imagine Entangle ot be used, but I'm pretty sure its the power for the job.

As for STR to break... yeah, rereading 'Takes No Damage from Attack' makes it a little more clear about this. I think this being the case, I'd remove the advantage, as it doesn't help much in this case.

However, since no one, not even any of the fighters in my game, have 20 STR, none of them would escape it as a free (casual STR) action.

Adding a second die would make it a LOT harder to escape, and even at double the cost I mentioned earlier, it'd still be a reasonably cheap spell. With 2 DEF, 2 BODY, even the use of full strength by the strongest of the characters would take more than one action, and it would take at least two from the spell casters. This may be a better representation of what I'm after. I'll play with it a bit more and see what I can come up with to suit my intent and needs. However, as the dice start climbing, it doesn't seem ot be the uberspell I feared.

[Rapier]

Rapier, the description of Entangle specifically states "restrain, immobilize, or paralyze" which the exact intent of the spell. I know its not how we usually imagine Entangle ot be used, but I'm pretty sure its the power for the job.

I was mostly thinking that if your hands have been frozen and don't work very well, it seems odd that "breaking the Entangle" suddenly warms them up.

It also seems odd that striking someone's frozen hands with a sword (eg breaking the Entangle) would remove the frost.

A Drain has a return rate so that in the meantime, the lowered DEX would force penalties until their hands warmed up. As their hands warm up, the penalties decrease. It just seems like more of a natural mesh between SFX and Power to me.

As for STR to break... yeah, rereading 'Takes No Damage from Attack' makes it a little more clear about this. I think this being the case, I'd remove the advantage, as it doesn't help much in this case.

However, since no one, not even any of the fighters in my game, have 20 STR, none of them would escape it as a free (casual STR) action.

Adding a second die would make it a LOT harder to escape, and even at double the cost I mentioned earlier, it'd still be a reasonably cheap spell. With 2 DEF, 2 BODY, even the use of full strength by the strongest of the characters would take more than one action, and it would take at least two from the spell casters. This may be a better representation of what I'm after. I'll play with it a bit more and see what I can come up with to suit my intent and needs. However, as the dice start climbing, it doesn't seem ot be the uberspell I feared.

You should be able to attack the Entangle and not the character.

With low STR characters (like you find in Heroic level games) you'll find that Entangles can get VERY nasty VERY quickly. A 4 DEF Entangle cannot be broken out of by a normal person (STR 10). The most BODY they can do is 4...and would never be able to inflict any BODY on the Entangle. A 4 DEF Entangle is on the cheaper side. So keep that in mind when you are working with Entangles.

[lynnlefey]

With low STR characters (like you find in Heroic level games) you'll find that Entangles can get VERY nasty VERY quickly. A 4 DEF Entangle cannot be broken out of by a normal person (STR 10). The most BODY they can do is 4...and would never be able to inflict any BODY on the Entangle. A 4 DEF Entangle is on the cheaper side. So keep that in mind when you are working with Entangles.

Yup, I worked that out already. Anything over 3 DEF would go from being a hindrance to screwing the character completely without intervention. The most powerful version I've made so far was 3 DEF, 2 BODY (increased DEF over body). Even that seems fairly powerful.

As for DEX drain, the idea is solid, but I'm not seeing how it mechanically achieves what I want to do, which is prevent wizards from casting spells with Gestures. As the Gestures limitation has nothting to do with one's DEX, it's not effected. Sure, if they have to target someone wiht an attack power, it'd make them more likely to miss, but not prevent the casting in the first place. As for the frost being broken away by attacks, that's just one of those things that building in the hero system system seems determined to make difficult. There's other issues, like there really probably ought ot be a linked NND of a die or more damage, as having your hands frozen should do SOME damage. So, the build's not perfect, but that's why I posted the idea, so it can get hammered into a useful form.

My intent on the original build was an entangle that could ONLY be attacked by heat/fire, but that's not how the 'Takes no Damage From Attacks' advantage works, and I'm stumped on how to build such a thing. I guess I'm looking for the exact opposite of NND, something that makes a defense impervious to all but one attack type.

And, as always, your inputs are greatly appreciated.

[Markdoc]

A good approach in Hero is to reason from affect. OK, so you want to:
1)Interfere with spellcasting. The same attack should presumably also interfere with anything requiring fine manipulation.
2) You want a small NND.

The NND is simple - build it as a linked attack (the defense is if the victim has quick access to heat, insulated hands or immunity to cold).

The decrease in skills I would build as change environment, with a custom limitation that it can only affect one target (-1?). Change environment has the advantages that there is nothing to "attack" - you can't cut the coldness away, the way you can with an entangle and that it already has a mechanism for applying negative skill levels (in this case defined as "Skills requiring fine manipulation" - which should cover spells with gestures). It has the disadvantage that it only affects hands in a defined area and as long as the change environment is running - if the victim moves out of the area of effect, or the spell ends, his hands will recover. Since it's not that expensive, you might want to invest in continuing charge or uncontrolled and a larger area of effect.

cheers, Mark

[lynnlefey]

The problem with that solution is that we're not talking about a single skill. A cleric may have 'Requires Faith Roll', and there are a handful of magic skills, Body Magic, Thaumaturgy, etc.

Secondly, I'm not looking for a decrease in skill. I'm looking for auto-failure for anything requiring gestures. Building it as -18 to a skill roll is, IMO prohibitively expensive. Doing so for multiple skills... man... The numbers hurt my eyes.

Now, assuming all casting skills were INT based, I suppose I could just say the effect was a minus to all INT skills... which seems kind of odd for frost covered hands... OR... is there some way to just sort of logically lump all spell-casting skills under one skill penalty?

The IDEA of it causing skill penalties isn't bad, just not what I had in mind.

Also, keep in mind my special effect of frosted hands is just that, a special effect. The primary function was to cause spell failure for any spell requiring gestures. What came of my initial attempt to do this was a spell that just so happened to also affect fighters and other folks. That was an unexpected side-effect, not an intentional function of the spell. Maybe it would be easier for everyone to accept this as an entangle if you imagine it being hands encased in ice, not just covered with a veil of frost.

[Kintar]

I think Markdoc's solution is the best one I've seen so far. It won't have the originally intended effect, which was to completely prevent spellcasting, but a -5 to spellcasting rolls will accomplish the same thing for low-skill casters. Plus, careful reading of change environment will reveal that the duration is variable depending on the special effect. If you suddenly turn one hex sub-zero, it'll take a minute for things to warm back up, including the fingers of someone caught in the spell, even if they move out of the area of effect.

*pauses, thinks, laughs*

Of course, if you don't mind a slightly silly tone to the spell, you could always buy it as Armor, usable on others, and have a spell that suddenly inflicts plate gauntlets on the spellcaster. =)

-- Kintar

[lynnlefey]

*pauses, thinks, laughs*

Of course, if you don't mind a slightly silly tone to the spell, you could always buy it as Armor, usable on others, and have a spell that suddenly inflicts plate gauntlets on the spellcaster. =)

-- Kintar

"Fluffy Oven Mittens of Spell Fumbling"

Right... That's just too silly!

[Manic Typist]

Two thoughts.

First- I would rule that the spell didn't prevent warriors who already had their swords in their hands from using them. If anything, their hands are now frosted so they need to break out if they want to LET GO of the weapon. However, after a phase or three, I could see making it easier to disarm them, since their hands would (eventually) go numb. Takes a second for frost to actually affect you.

Second- for disrupting it with attacks: the problem is with the SFX, not the system. If you're really dealing with frost, then yes, only heat would be a legitimate way of dealing with it (or rubbing your hands together, etc). If you want something that can be attacked more universally- say an intricate latticework of magical lines inscribed as frost appears. You disrupt those lines (with an attack), you disrupt the spell.