Make everyone fight at your level... a heroic fighter in a supers world.

[Remjin]

Okay, so here I am, thinking about various stupidities... it occupies most of my time, really, but I had what i thought might be a neat idea...

Now, often, in certain types of games, its hard to play a martial artist without somehow compensating for certain lacks. So say you want to play a shaolin monk type, but with machine-guns and cars coming at you, or even energy blasts and otherwise, you're at a bit of a disadvantage. You want to be able to do your schtick, and you want to fight another man on that basic human level to have a sort of "fair fight." I'm not going to go into conceptual ideas on the character that much, except that the entire point is to force a fair fight of sorts without any of the extras getting in the way.

Obviously, taking a 100 point martial artist in a 350 point world would be hard. Giving him mystical/technical/mutant abilitiies to make it happen wouldn't be so bad. =)

So the concept is this: defense powers that negate all except Normal Characteristic Maxima (referred to as NCM from hereon), skills, etc. so that this one character can fight everyone at that basic level, forcing someone to depend on their skill and human abilities to face against this character. How would you guys go about this?

I was thinking about stuff like Armor at high levels with the disadvantage of "Only versus damage above X" where X is defined as about as much damage as a normal human could do...

Perhaps a suppress versus characteristics above NCM? Some help would be appreciated, this is mostly a mental exercise, but its an idea I find fascinating... any help would be appreciated.

[jkwleisemann]

Hmm....

I'd say Drains, myself.

Drain against any characteristic (at once?), only to reduce to NCM.

Similarly, Drains to eliminate various powers.

I'd look at a character (can't remember her name to save my life) from 4th Ed's Creatures of the Night, a character whose entire schtick was to eliminate those pesky, chaotic superpowers. She should have some ideas there.

Character name? The Great Equalizer.

[casualplayer]

Damage Reduction vs. non-Real World weaponry or characters without NCM. Also levels with Roll with Blow/Dive for Cover can work.

[Remjin]

Hmm....

I'd say Drains, myself.

Drain against any characteristic (at once?), only to reduce to NCM.

Similarly, Drains to eliminate various powers.

I'd look at a character (can't remember her name to save my life) from 4th Ed's Creatures of the Night, a character whose entire schtick was to eliminate those pesky, chaotic superpowers. She should have some ideas there.

Character name? The Great Equalizer.

Ooooh... now if I can only find it without having to buy an old book... =)

[Metaphysician]

Honestly, its probably too hard a concept to get to work mechanically. You'd be better off just having the shaolin guy have super kung fu: high characteristics, combat luck, martial arts and DCs, etc.

[jkwleisemann]

Maybe hard, but personally, I think the concept rocks myself.

Honorable martial artist who barely registers on the radar of anybody in the superheroic world who solidly kicks the tail of any super he comes across - watch everybody panic and try to figure out how the blazes he pulled it off.

[Metaphysician]

Part of the problem is, lets say you do it with a nice big Area Suppress.

What does it Suppress? Does it effect skill levels? Superskills? Martial Arts DCs above a certain level? Talents?

It'd take a very strange definition indeed to convince me it should somehow cause, say, Nightwind to forget how to does his YengTao maneuvers.

[jkwleisemann]

Those, certainly not. I'd say that what the concept would involve limiting would be the following:

Stats above NCM (as stated in the concept itself).
Non-equipment based powers.
Any equipment based powers that aren't normal technology.
Anything above the "normal skill maximum" suggested in TUSK.
Maybe bonus DC.

[GoldenAge]

First of all... How is he "equaling the playing field" by eliminating all of his opponent's powers except normal characteristics? Is he also adding Martial Arts and the appropriate skills to their repertoire in lieu of their former powers (up to the point total of your Martial Artist's)? Sounds like he's altering the playing field to dramatically tip in his favor.

Second, a Martial Artist who walks around with a gigantic power that reduces his opponents to normal people (including Power Armor, Mutations, Inherent Powers, Divine Powers... etc) is hardly normal himself. In fact, he's about as powerful as any single character I've encountered... Especially if he fights as part of a group.

Honestly, it's probably best if you build a Martial Artist up to the point that you feel you can be affective within the rules. Utilizing skills like Dive for Cover, Defense Maneuver, Dodge, Rapid Attack and a creative use of your environment instead of an "equalizing power" will make the game much more challenging. Spending the remaining points of the original 350 will simply allow you to flesh the character out with non-combat skills and perks.

[Clonus]

Yes, well like most people this guy considers it "fair" when he has the upper hand. But, more importantly, how does he get the upper hand? Given that he's a martial artist, I suggest giving him the knowledge of the sooper-secret pressure points that block use of superpowers.

[jkwleisemann]

Personally, I don't *think* that Remjin was saying that MA's are inherently inferior and weak.

I think, rather, that he intended to present an interesting character concept - one who, personally, has nothing more than human strength, skill, and ability... except for the ability to make sure that nobody *else* has anything more than human strength, skill, and ability as well. And as that - as a concept for a single character - I find it interesting.

It 'levels the playing field' by reducing things to a matter of skill and training, rather than superpowers against the skill and training.

Is is "fair"? Not necessarily. Because, as has been pointed out, it doesn't *give* them his skill and training. However, on the right character - from the *character* perspective - does it make it fair-er...?

Consider, if you will, the character who might end up wanting abilities like this. A martial artist who finds himself highly trained, very capable, but without the pseudo-mystic abilities of your average super-MA. He lacks any rDef that isn't part of a suit of armor. He lacks anything beyond baseline skills, NCM stats, MA's, and some combat skill levels - he is, for all intents and purposes, a high powered *heroic* character.

He's human. He's *mortal*. But here he is, trying to survive in a world where you've got people who *sneeze* more powerful attacks than he's got. Where lumbering oxes with big fists can dish out more damage than he can dream of - not through skill, that he wouldn't begrudge them, but simply because they were trampled by a radioactive wildebeest.

There's no honor in that sort of combat, at least not that he can see. Honor is in testing your *skill* against the *skill* of another. Your *training*. Not whether or not you live near a nuclear power plant. Not whether or not you found somebody to give you the blessings of Kalamazoo the Great.

Therefore, he breaks his own principles... a little. He seeks out, and learns, a technique that will allow him to reduce the equation to skill against skill. He uses it against superbeings - and it is only useful against superbeings, because normal people cannot be affected by it.

To his way of thinking - that honor is skill vs skill - this is fair. He has a power that he can use, granted, and he uses it freely. But it only works against others who 'cheat.'

If, having been affected by this technique, they have enough power and skill left to defeat him, then they do so. Then they have earned the *right* to do so, because they have the *skill* to overcome him. They are the greater warrior, and they have proven so honorably.

He can move on to the next superpowered Goliath who thinks he's skilled when he's merely powerful.

*That* is interesting. To me.

[GoldenAge]

There's no honor in that sort of combat, at least not that he can see. Honor is in testing your *skill* against the *skill* of another. Your *training*. Not whether or not you live near a nuclear power plant. Not whether or not you found somebody to give you the blessings of Kalamazoo the Great.

Therefore, he breaks his own principles... a little. He seeks out, and learns, a technique that will allow him to reduce the equation to skill against skill. He uses it against superbeings - and it is only useful against superbeings, because normal people cannot be affected by it.

To his way of thinking - that honor is skill vs skill - this is fair. He has a power that he can use, granted, and he uses it freely. But it only works against others who 'cheat.'

If, having been affected by this technique, they have enough power and skill left to defeat him, then they do so. Then they have earned the *right* to do so, because they have the *skill* to overcome him. They are the greater warrior, and they have proven so honorably.

He can move on to the next superpowered Goliath who thinks he's skilled when he's merely powerful.

*That* is interesting. To me.

Interesting, yes.

This could be a very fun "Cain" type character. A lone warrior who travels the world seeking out those who possess, and use, great power on lesser men. He confronts such despots and breaks them down to the level of their victims... Then, breaks their jaws, hopefully teaching them a lesson they wont soon forget.

Sounds like fun!

But, in my experience as a Champions player, people gather to play Champions in groups of 3+ players. What if "Great Equalizer" is a member of a team and fights along side Corporal Punishment; Power Armor avenger extrodinaire, whom is built on the original 350 point campaign totals? Now, every time "Great Equalizer" gets into HTH with a villain the villain's powers are eiminated and POW! CORPORAL PUNISHMENT RAINS DOWN RETROBUTION... on a sitting duck.

Obviously "Great Equalizer" isn't going to care. He's already stacked the playing field in his favor by taking the villain's weapon away (be it a real weapon, strength, whatever) and lording over him as an obvious superior. Not too much honor there.

[jkwleisemann]

Well, obviously elements like that are going to be issues.

Which, of course, is why he might work better as a villain/mercenary sort of opponent.

Of course, as a PC, he'd need to work better with others before he'd work - or the team would need to come up with strategies that wouldn't make (a) him the team's de-buffer and nothing more or (b) the others into the executioners.

Of course, other ways to balance that out might be to use a Suppress - which instantly cuts out when he stops maintaining it - or to limit it in such a way that it only works against him.

Or just give him the psych lims (I'd say that *Honorable* covers it right there) that would leave him refusing to use that ability against villains if the others aren't going to let the contest play out the way it should from there.

After all - there's more to the guy than "walking around, finding supers, depowering them, and punching them in the head." If there *isn't* more than that, then he's not a particularly interesting character. But by adding in things like the honor aspect - and its attendant unwillingness to use it 'dishonorably' by de-buffing his foes for the rest of the team to reduce to a fine red spray - it helps to balance out the parts that make him a "doesn't play well with others" sorts.

At least I think it does. *shrugs*

[Haven Walkur]

I think the original post was more concerned with how one would go about constructing this sort of power, than whether a character who uses this sort of power is a mean, nasty, unfair bad person. :-P

I have no idea how the effect would be built -- short of GM fiat -- but I do think the concept is a fascinating one, and the psychology behind it particularly intriguing.

I find myself wondering how well Hidden Dragon, my LSH martial artist, would stack up against him. I think she was more-or-less straight skills and skill levels -- I believe her only super-power was the ability to become invisible -- but I suspect I'd be reminded the hard way once she got into it with the Great Equalizer, and any other "taken-for-granted" powers I'd forgotten about stopped working....

[Remjin]

GoldenAge, you bring up very good points as to the merits of this character in a team. Honestly, I hadn't even thought of it in that regard, I was wholly concerned with it as a solo concept.

I'd rather the whole thing be built so that "superpowers" didn't effect HIM, and him only, rather than suppress it entirely. jkwleisemann pretty much is describing the entirety of the concept superbly. =)

Its the whole idea that THIS guy can fight supers at his level. Sure, of course he's kind of got an advantage in that respect, that's what he's trained his entire life for, but its that idea of taking away the "cheat" that most supers have in being a hero/villain and bringing them down to the base idea of skill versus skill. Even with the suppression/ineffectiveness, they're being brought down to human levels. The character itself is not going to be maximum human potential, 20s in every stat, etc. He's going to be tip-top, but not THE top of everything.

The whole breaking it down to skill versus skill is what I'm looking for, and I just don't know exactly how to do it. I mean, can you suppress "only versus this guy"? Kind of wierd. Plus, it'd probably be hugely expensive to buy as far as powers go. =)

This is mostly an exercise in a concept, and how to do it, perhaps as an infuriating NPC later or something of that sort, where the points won't really matter, and really... he can still be defeated by many a hero who has any real level of skill. A supers level martial artist will wipe him out by sheer volume of skill levels and otherwise... but he could possibly give him a run for the money or even humble a basic brick or blaster, etc.

Haven Walkur does make a good point.. I am looking for HOW, though, rather than WHY. =) I do appreciate JKWeisalmann's standing up for the idea, though, and thanks for the compliments on the concept.