6th Edition Hero System

[Zed-F]

No plans for this in the future, I know, but the last thread I could find that looked like it was seriously discussing this was a year ago, so perhaps thinking has crystallized on this a bit further. What are the big changes people would like to see in 6th Edition Hero? I'm not talking about little peeves like Regeneration being split out of Aid or whatever, I'm talking broad strokes here. If you think all Hero needs is a few small tweaks here and there... then that's fine too, and all we really need to know for the purpose of this thread.

For myself, I would like to see a lot of streamlining of the rules go in for the next version. We have many different ways of making more than one attack in the same round -- autofire, sweep/rapid fire, MPA -- and they are all slightly different. The adding damage rules is a mass of contradictions and exceptions. The FAQ to go from FREd to 5ER was huge, and still the clarifications and addenda keep piling up.

I would like to see the system rationalized, not so much in terms of content, but in terms of mechanical consistency. Having several primary and figured characteristics doesn't bother me so much. But I would like to see the way the rules interact with one another streamlined so that everything works together more consistently, with fewer rules exceptions. Right now Hero violates the KISS principle in too many ways, and many of the rules clarifications don't really make sense, which I attribute to different sets of rules not playing nice with one another. Paring down the number of different mechanics would make it easier to really make sure the ones that are left interact more cleanly and logically.

It's become increasingly clear that one cannot rules-lawyer one's way to a balanced system. It just causes an endless proliferation of exception-case rules. So I'd vote to get back to essentials, and then revise from there with the intent of keeping the mechanics as universal and streamlined as they can be made to be.

What broad-stroke changes would you like to see?

[bwdemon]

Here's where I start...

1. Divorce DEX from SPD & CV, reduce cost to 1/pt
2. PD base becomes CON/5
3. ED base becomes BODY/5
4. SPD base = 2
5. REC base = (CON + BODY)/5
6. CV base = 0 (must buy CSLs or use special maneuvers to increase)
7. Skill system goes to a (5 + CHA/3) base with 1pt/+1 as the price for all skills and identification of "trained only" skills (e.g. non-Everyman).
8. Remove killing attacks and resistant defenses (see the "Heresy" thread)
9. Remove armor and force field (buy PD/ED and buy as nonpersistent if appropriate)
10. Anything bought as a power is inherently visible (invisibility being the exception, of course).

[Teflon Billy]

Flash Defense applies to all senses by default. With limitations restricting it to individual sense groups.

TB

[Zed-F]

Here's where I start...

1. Divorce DEX from SPD & CV, reduce cost to 1/pt
2. PD base becomes CON/5
3. ED base becomes BODY/5
4. SPD base = 2
5. REC base = (CON + BODY)/5
6. CV base = 0 (must buy CSLs or use special maneuvers to increase)
7. Skill system goes to a (5 + CHA/3) base with 1pt/+1 as the price for all skills and identification of "trained only" skills (e.g. non-Everyman).
8. Remove killing attacks and resistant defenses (see the "Heresy" thread)
9. Remove armor and force field (buy PD/ED and buy as nonpersistent if appropriate)
10. Anything bought as a power is inherently visible (invisibility being the exception, of course).

Flash Defense applies to all senses by default. With limitations restricting it to individual sense groups.

See, this is a collection of tweaks. Putting these out there without giving the overall philosophy behind the changes isn't, IMHO, helpful. I'd prefer it if people would explain what kinds of changes they want to see, and why, without necessarily going into specifics, except to provide an example.

[Doc Democracy]

I suggested this last time we discussed it and I'd suggest it again.

One of the big sources of discord in Hero are characteristics. I would personally remove characteristics from the system and allow powers or skills to be bought that achieve effects like lifting, jumping etc.

Combat abilities could be purchased along the lines of skill levels etc.

To me that would be truer to the HERO ideal of toolkitting. Characteristics are currently too black box for a clean system.


Doc

[OddHat]

1) No more figured characteristics.

2) No more Killing vs Normal damage. No more Energy versus Physical damage. It's all just "Damage".

3) PD and ED replaced by one stat, DEF.

4) No more Hero System Discussion board; all rules disagreements to be settled through pie eating contests.

[schir1964]

...Characteristics are currently too black box for a clean system....

True enough, and there is a reason for this as you well know. (8^D)

It is the Human Template that is presumed for the characteristics. That is why there are figured Characteristics and why STR grants Lifting and Leaping.

To make a sweeping change would require breaking all of these things down into single elements that are defined to have only a single mechanical effect. Then recombine or associate these elements to create the Human Template, Venusion Template, Vehicle Template, Automaton Template, and so forth.

Defenses would need to be reworked to be a single element that would then be used to create all the different types of defenses seen with the current system. This would mean that Characters, NPC's, and Objects would all use the same consistent mechanic as the underlying basis.

Mechanics should allow one to build up from scratch, not have to be torn down to meet a SFX. (Personal Preference)

Death/Destruction/Broken would need to be expounded upon so that they are consistent and allow for more flexibility than the current Stun/Body mechanic allows for.

And many other things that I won't go into.

- Christopher Mullins

[Blue]

All of my opinions run almost completely contrary to those of everyone else here:

• Divorce all setting material from the Hero System book.
• Like the Combat Book, Equipment Book, and the forthcoming Character making thingie, I'd publish it as seperate books; Preferably hard-backed, though I'm still down for the soft.

[Starwolf]

Hmmm... I will probably be somewhat of a nay sayer here. I have been a Herophile since the very first publication (I even got Steve Petersons autograph on some convention Teen Titans characters). I feel that if any of the changes BWDemon were to be implemented, it would no longer be Hero but rather a spin off and I would be forced to remain with 5th Ed. This type of radical change to a basic core methodology is one of the reasons I quit playing D&D. When they started adding prestige this and skill point that the system became Non-D&D. Does D20 work? Sure it does but it's not the D&D that I grew to know and love. Would changing the game system work for Hero type games? Yes, but then it woud no longer be Hero. As for tweaking... I don't beleive you can create a system that would not require some sort of tweaking or house rules or explanations. As soon as you allow a new player to pick up the game and open the book, there will be questions, or suggestions as to how they might want to improve your new simple core system. So my vote... Keep the core the way it is.

[Log-Man]

1) No more figured characteristics.

2) No more Killing vs Normal damage. No more Energy versus Physical damage. It's all just "Damage".

3) PD and ED replaced by one stat, DEF.

4) No more Hero System Discussion board; all rules disagreements to be settled through pie eating contests.

Agreed on all points.



Especially that last one.

[bwdemon]

See, this is a collection of tweaks. Putting these out there without giving the overall philosophy behind the changes isn't, IMHO, helpful. I'd prefer it if people would explain what kinds of changes they want to see, and why, without necessarily going into specifics, except to provide an example.

The arguments are either self-evident or have been hashed out in enough threads to be common knowledge. All are made in the interest of game balance or removal of unnecessary complications - both of which have been neglected with each subsequent revision.

[ajackson]

There are two basic classes of changes to consider:

Alterations in point costs -- there are costs that are questionable or broken.
Alterations in mechanics -- the Hero System is somewhat clunky; streamlining would be good.

There is a counterforce, however: any new mechanics have to retain the existing consumers. Recall how people reacted to Fuzion? While there were some significant problems with Fuzion, there were also some good ideas -- e.g. the way Fuzion handled stats and tasks was basically superior to Hero. Fuzion died in part due to poor design, but also in significant part due to being both Not Hero and Not Mekton.

[Enforcer84]

*Plops down 5th Ed Revised*
There.

[Lord Mhoram]

Keep the core the way it is.

That is how I feel. I don't want to see much more of a change than there was from 4th to 5th from 5th to 6th - basically fine tuning and small things to make things run smoother;
but things I do not want to see changed:

Characteristic costs, or figured characteristic formulas (Keep STR and DEX as they are!).
Frameworks
Killing Damage (now if this changes some to reduce the stun lotto I can live with it, but there still needs to be two types of damage - on for knocking out, and one for lethal).

In gameplay - Keep 3d6 roll under and the standard combat structure and CV formulas.
Keep game inches. I like the wargame roots.

[KarinsDad]

I think the Speed chart is unnecessarily clunky and puts an extra major effort on the GMs shoulders.

I like a lot of the game as is and do not see a great need for change, but the Speed chart should be chucked and replaced with a simpler, more intuitive system of initiatives.