Magical Trap trigger blinder/activator

[jaws]

This is focused for rune casters, however it can apply to any type of spell casting.

I am looking to create an effect that basically detects the trigger required to set of a rune=(or magical trap or effect), note that this information is not revealed to the caster or user of the effect.
The second part of the effect takes the information detected and uses it to

1. Set off the magical trigger by satisfying the conditions
2. Blind the triggers ability to detect the proper conditions, effectively avoiding its activation for a limited time.

For the first part I was thinking a focused detect (discriminatory/analyze) with the -2 limitation of only working for the power.

To activate the trigger I was thinking of a fairly open ended change environment only to activate the trigger.

Finally

To temporarily disable the trigger I was thinking of using a Flash on a variety of senses only vs. Trigger.

Any ideas opinions, tips suggestions or blind spots I'm missing?
Especially any suggestions on exactly how to put this together are appreciated.

[Rapier]

It strikes me as unorthodox to build a Detect: Trigger, but that is most definitely the easiest path to take. Other builds could include some kind of Retrocog Clairsentience, Only to Detect Trigger or something. All in all, I would probably stick with the Detect. Flavour is heavily with RSR: Runic Magic and such. In fact, a basic KS: Runic Magic might allow the character to determine what kind of rune it is and what would be likely to trigger it.

How to blind a Trigger? Now we're getting interesting. Technically, Triggers have no senses so Flashing a Trigger would have no effect. But how then to disable the Trigger? How about a Suppress? Suppress the Active Points in either the Power or just in the AP cost of the Trigger Advantage? For that matter Drain would work just as well, and would give you the option of having the Rune inoperable for a period of time. When it's all said and done, I think I would favour the Suppress/Drain design. Suppressing/Draining the AP of the Trigger Advantage would pre-detonate the attack and the entire power would simply nullify the attack. While it might be a slight stretch to define the Suppress as "Any Magical Triggered Spell," I think it's enough of a limited class to qualify as a decent design.

[Chris Goodwin]

I believe Trigger requires some kind of sense in order to detect the triggering condition.

To blind it for a short time I'd use Flash, but for a longer term (say, long enough for the entire party to move through the area) try Darkness.

To trigger it? A little more work. It would depend strongly on what the triggering condition is. Try, believe it or not, Security Systems; there's precedent for using Lockpicking as an "uber-lockpick" spell, so use Security Systems under the same rationale. As a GM I'd sure let Security Systems trigger a Trigger as much as remove it. Alternately, Dispel, Suppress, or Transform might do it also.

[Hyper-Man]

The rules on page 269 of 5er state that circumstances that activate a Triggered power must be easily verifiable, and cannot depend on any Senses the character does not possess. A character could buy extra senses only for activating the Trigger for a -2 Limitations. Also, unless IPE is also purchased the Trigger is recognizable with a standard PER roll.

I seems reasonable that a Flash or Images vs. an applicable sense could be used to set off a Trigger from range.

[jaws]

How to blind a Trigger? Now we're getting interesting. Technically, Triggers have no senses so Flashing a Trigger would have no effect.

As Hyper-man mentions in the rules it specifies trigeres are based on the senses of the caster at the time of casting and can purchase senses to improve detection. So i read that to mean it does have senses perse. However, I could be wrong.

But how then to disable the Trigger? How about a Suppress? Suppress the Active Points in either the Power or just in the AP cost of the Trigger Advantage? For that matter Drain would work just as well, and would give you the option of having the Rune inoperable for a period of time. When it's all said and done, I think I would favour the Suppress/Drain design. Suppressing/Draining the AP of the Trigger Advantage would pre-detonate the attack and the entire power would simply nullify the attack. While it might be a slight stretch to define the Suppress as "Any Magical Triggered Spell," I think it's enough of a limited class to qualify as a decent design.

Can you just suppress a trigger? I know I don't want to suppress the whole effect as there could be unforeseen secondary triggers or effects linked to magical effect or special effects or other magical mischief could be possible with the effect.

I believe Trigger requires some kind of sense in order to detect the triggering condition.

To blind it for a short time I'd use Flash, but for a longer term (say, long enough for the entire party to move through the area) try Darkness.

To trigger it? A little more work. It would depend strongly on what the triggering condition is. Try, believe it or not, Security Systems; there's precedent for using Lockpicking as an "uber-lockpick" spell, so use Security Systems under the same rationale. As a GM I'd sure let Security Systems trigger a Trigger as much as remove it. Alternately, Dispel, Suppress, or Transform might do it also.

Darkness fits the bill better I think. As for security systems, it could work I guess as defined with a magical special effect.

I was thinking change environment as the trigger because it allows quite a few different options though minor, but could be enough to set off most triggers though not all. Another option i though was to use some sort of illusion that only affects triggers.

The rules on page 269 of 5er state that circumstances that activate a Triggered power must be easily verifiable, and cannot depend on any Senses the character does not possess. A character could buy extra senses only for activating the Trigger for a -2 Limitations. Also, unless IPE is also purchased the Trigger is recognizable with a standard PER roll.

I seems reasonable that a Flash or Images vs. an applicable sense could be used to set off a Trigger from range.

It would be obvious that the effect is triggerable, but would something like a command word be obvious to a PER roll? Or if you add a telepathy to the power and a trigger to go off when "anybody enters the room with out thinking about apples"? The trigger is clear and easily verifiable, however it shouldn't be obvious how it works.

[Rapier]

As Hyper-man mentions in the rules it specifies trigeres are based on the senses of the caster at the time of casting and can purchase senses to improve detection. So i read that to mean it does have senses perse. However, I could be wrong.

Granted, I had forgotten about Triggers using the Senses of the Triggerer. But this might require Flash: Touch, Sight, Sound, IR, UV...the list is potentially endless. You would have to purchase ALL Sense Groups, which could get pretty pricey.

Can you just suppress a trigger? I know I don't want to suppress the whole effect as there could be unforeseen secondary triggers or effects linked to magical effect or special effects or other magical mischief could be possible with the effect.

Isn't that part of the fun?

Darkness fits the bill better I think. As for security systems, it could work I guess as defined with a magical special effect.

Again, you would have to purchase Darkness for ALL Sense Groups.

It would be obvious that the effect is triggerable, but would something like a command word be obvious to a PER roll? Or if you add a telepathy to the power and a trigger to go off when "anybody enters the room with out thinking about apples"? The trigger is clear and easily verifiable, however it shouldn't be obvious how it works.

Well, that's the rub. I think for a mechanical trap or some such a simple PER roll would allow someone to determine that there is a pressure plate or some kind of triggering device. However, with a rune written on the wall, it would not be obvious what would trigger the spell.

Although this is close to my thoughts. I think a simple KS: Runic Magic roll would suffice.

[jaws]

It could be made as a power that block only certain common senses... such as sight group, detects, hearing group, touch group. I never said it was infallible... :P

What is suddenly worrying me is the detectability of triggers such as passwords or something like that. Would not being able to figure out it is password activated be part of the special effect or would it actually incur a cost such as IPE? I don't want people walking around guessing passwords to the ubber-evil castle by making a good PER roll.

I am not looking to justify everything systemwise necessarily, but if it is possible, all the better.

[Chris Goodwin]

The rules on page 269 of 5er state that circumstances that activate a Triggered power must be easily verifiable, and cannot depend on any Senses the character does not possess. A character could buy extra senses only for activating the Trigger for a -2 Limitations. Also, unless IPE is also purchased the Trigger is recognizable with a standard PER roll.

I seems reasonable that a Flash or Images vs. an applicable sense could be used to set off a Trigger from range.

Good call on both counts.

[DarkGreen]

It seems like "flashing the trigger" is a bit of munchkin cheese to me. Sorta like the guy who wanted to use images to outline invisible people in the rules questions thread and Steve just said "use suppress, outlining is just the special effect".

I think you should just use suppress. It turns off the power, check, and has a duration, check. Special effect could be blinding the trigger if you wanted ("This spell will blind the guardians to our presence").

If you want to set off a trigger that gets more tricky. Images seems like it works but I'm worried about letting people detect the trigger as it could be abused and is ridiculously cheap. It would be like "detect: password" in a modern campaign.

As a GM I would say that if you can dispel a triggered effect you could activate it instead if that's how the power is built. You dispel the trigger by setting it off. Somebody paid for the effect and somebody paid for it not to be there anymore, having it go off seems fine.

[Hyper-Man]

It seems like "flashing the trigger" is a bit of munchkin cheese to me. Sorta like the guy who wanted to use images to outline invisible people in the rules questions thread and Steve just said "use suppress, outlining is just the special effect".

I think you should just use suppress. It turns off the power, check, and has a duration, check. Special effect could be blinding the trigger if you wanted ("This spell will blind the guardians to our presence").

If you want to set off a trigger that gets more tricky. Images seems like it works but I'm worried about letting people detect the trigger as it could be abused and is ridiculously cheap. It would be like "detect: password" in a modern campaign.

As a GM I would say that if you can dispel a triggered effect you could activate it instead if that's how the power is built. You dispel the trigger by setting it off. Somebody paid for the effect and somebody paid for it not to be there anymore, having it go off seems fine.

Hey, I am the guy who asked Steve the Images vs. Invisibility question!

Anyway, Images or Flash seem extremely appropriate if the goal is to just set off the Trigger. 5er even gives examples of something similar with regard to Triggers defined as a bomb detonator with a radio receiver. Someone nearby with a cell phone, garage door opener etc... might set off the Trigger by accident. If the goal is to blind the Trigger temporarily then Suppress is necessary. I never suggested that Flash could be used to do this.

[jaws]

Ok I am fairly new to all this though I have been playing around with the system for a while. Just to make sure I am understanding all of this correctly.

1. Flashing a trigger to "blind it" for a few segments to by pass it is basically Munchkiny and Suppress should be used instead with the special effect that the trigger is blocked.
2. Using detect trigger is considered comparable to detect Tactical nuke activation key? If so, how would you go about simulating a hacker that can actually do this then.
3. Suppress (only to set off trigger)? Sounds a bit strange... think this a good way to simulate this. After all a suppress is supposed to stop a power were setting it off unexpectedly could turn an opponents power to your favor. I feel its against the theme of Suppress, no?

[DarkGreen]

Ok I am fairly new to all this though I have been playing around with the system for a while. Just to make sure I am understanding all of this correctly.

1. Flashing a trigger to "blind it" for a few segments to by pass it is basically Munchkiny and Suppress should be used instead with the special effect that the trigger is blocked.
2. Using detect trigger is considered comparable to detect Tactical nuke activation key? If so, how would you go about simulating a hacker that can actually do this then.
3. Suppress (only to set off trigger)? Sounds a bit strange... think this a good way to simulate this. After all a suppress is supposed to stop a power were setting it off unexpectedly could turn an opponents power to your favor. I feel its against the theme of Suppress, no?

1) Agree 100%

2) Simulate it with a really high skill roll. An example of this is in the FH Grimoire spell for reading languages and breaking codes. The spell doesn't use "detect: original unencrypted text" but rather has a slot with Cryptography 25- to decrypt. A detect should not be a low-cost workaround to skills, IMHO. Why use knowledge skills otherwise, you could just have "Detect: information you need, analyze" to cover all KSs. (That last bit was obviously a bit of Reductio ad Absurdum to make a point, but you get the idea).

3) I would suggest using Dispel here since it would be permanent on a trigger but maybe that's what you meant. Dispel that sets off triggers instead of quietly neutralizing them would be advantageous some times, but usually more of a problem. Seems like just a special effect which works well if you catch the guy setting a trigger and poorly if you are trying to be sneaky, so it seems reasonable to me. Thoughts?

[jaws]

1) Agree 100%

2) Simulate it with a really high skill roll. An example of this is in the FH Grimoire spell for reading languages and breaking codes. The spell doesn't use "detect: original unencrypted text" but rather has a slot with Cryptography 25- to decrypt. A detect should not be a low-cost workaround to skills, IMHO. Why use knowledge skills otherwise, you could just have "Detect: information you need, analyze" to cover all KSs. (That last bit was obviously a bit of Reductio ad Absurdum to make a point, but you get the idea).

OK got it so knowledge runes is the way to go then. After reading around the skills and knowledges section a bit it is much clearer.

3) I would suggest using Dispel here since it would be permanent on a trigger but maybe that's what you meant. Dispel that sets off triggers instead of quietly neutralizing them would be advantageous some times, but usually more of a problem. Seems like just a special effect which works well if you catch the guy setting a trigger and poorly if you are trying to be sneaky, so it seems reasonable to me. Thoughts?

But most runes are charge based either recoverable or non recoverable, so setting off a rune reduces its charges but doesn't permanently dispel it. So suppress is a better way to go, using the same suggestions you gave me for dispel.