Heroes for pay

[Christopher]

Of course it's percentage of self-defence shootings that were mistaken. I don't know what you're trying to pretend I was saying.

You gave an incomplete expression. Don't give the blame of misunderstanding to others, who only got this incomplete expression.

Also, could you back up this claim with facts/studies or another source?

[Hugh Neilson]

Of course it's percentage of self-defence shootings that were mistaken. I don't know what you're trying to pretend I was saying. Cops AREN'T likely to be in a situation where they have to use lethal force, most cops never have that situation in their entire careers. Therefore it couldn't possibly be that 11% of cops mistakenly shoot people, that's more than the percentage who ever have to fire their guns. Hell it's probably more than the percentage who ever had to draw them. That the police create situations where they might be mistaken about whether or not people are reaching for a gun is part of the point.

It's their job to stop suspects, so I would say "the police create situations" is overly inflammatory.

Relying on the experts is not safe.

So, are you getting your statistics from experts (which is not safe) or from non-experts (who lack any credibility)?

It's 5.5x more dangerous. Police are given minimal training, much of it bad (e.g. they are trained not to confront a "spree shooter" with armed force, despite that being 100% effective and 100% non-lethal to the person confronting them). They train yearly to qualify on their firearms, much less than people who actually think it's likely they'll have to defend themselves, who don't miss a week.

As others have asked, where is the source for your information? I'm interested in the fact that you know how police training, firearms qualification, etc. is administered world wide, for example.

[Orion]

Oh really? Care to back that statement with some facts? I can tell you in the small city I live in (around 56,255 according to google) that the Fire Fighters makes exactly $0 an hour, averaging out to an annual salary of $0. Now I don't know how much you get paid for what you do, but $0 seems pretty low.

Seems to me you are talking about volunteers, whereas matthewcelis was talking about paid employees.


http://www.texastribune.org/library/.../3749/?page=16

Austin, TX - median firefighter salary is $62k. From local newspaper reports, I get the idea pay is slightly higher here than in the other large Texas cities, but not overwhelmingly so. During the last round of union negotiations, one of the big issues was that the firefighters get a bonus/increase/something over standard firefighter pay to offset the cost of living in Austin. Of course, many don't actually live in Austin, but still get that increase.

http://www.ci.austin.tx.us/police/re...g/benefits.htm
Austin TX - police salary can be $60k or so after 1 year on the job. There are numerous reports of police (and I'm talking sergeants and patrolmen, not the police chief) of make in the $125k and above range. Some of this is overtime, but some is just due to high wages after a few years.

http://archive.austinisd.org/inside/...lary_11_12.pdf
Austin TX - teacher salary. Looks like you can start at about $42k. I think that is for the partial year, but may be wrong.

Two of these jobs have potential danger, but the actual percentage injured is quite low. Two also have to put up with a lot of grief from everyone looking over their shoulder. Still, in my opinion they are overpaid, especially considering the low education requirements for the jobs. These three jobs aren't being paid so well because of the danger or grief or value to society - they are paid that much because they have unions that basically blackmail the city government.

[Hugh Neilson]

Two of these jobs have potential danger, but the actual percentage injured is quite low. Two also have to put up with a lot of grief from everyone looking over their shoulder. Still, in my opinion they are overpaid, especially considering the low education requirements for the jobs. These three jobs aren't being paid so well because of the danger or grief or value to society - they are paid that much because they have unions that basically blackmail the city government.

So have you applied, if the criteria are so low and the pay so excessive?

[megaplayboy]

A 1st year associate at a large law firm makes 160,000 a year, with a chance for a bonus of up to 40,000 dollars. A starting doctor, post-residency, will make 100,000 to 250,000, depending on specialty. A United States Congressperson makes 168,000 a year plus an awesome array of perks and benefits. Investment bankers do quite well for themselves, of course. With whom are you comparing those salaries and concluding they're overpaid?

[csyphrett]

starting teachers are listed at 33k. You have to put in 20 years before you hit anywhere near 60k
CES

[megaplayboy]

Cops, Firefighters and Teachers also have to deal with high stress, low morale, higher burnout and divorce rates, etc.

By no means are these "easy" or "cushy" jobs. I worked as a substitute teacher, for 80 bucks a day, in the 90s. Some days it was okay, other days a kind of living hell. It takes serious skills to get a class under control, to establish a rapport with the students, and to impart knowledge that will stay with them. That's before you even get to the level of being able to inspire them.

[Checkmate]

Seems to me you are talking about volunteers, whereas matthewcelis was talking about paid employees.


http://www.texastribune.org/library/.../3749/?page=16

Austin, TX - median firefighter salary is $62k. From local newspaper reports, I get the idea pay is slightly higher here than in the other large Texas cities, but not overwhelmingly so. During the last round of union negotiations, one of the big issues was that the firefighters get a bonus/increase/something over standard firefighter pay to offset the cost of living in Austin. Of course, many don't actually live in Austin, but still get that increase.

http://www.ci.austin.tx.us/police/re...g/benefits.htm
Austin TX - police salary can be $60k or so after 1 year on the job. There are numerous reports of police (and I'm talking sergeants and patrolmen, not the police chief) of make in the $125k and above range. Some of this is overtime, but some is just due to high wages after a few years.

http://archive.austinisd.org/inside/...lary_11_12.pdf
Austin TX - teacher salary. Looks like you can start at about $42k. I think that is for the partial year, but may be wrong.

Two of these jobs have potential danger, but the actual percentage injured is quite low. Two also have to put up with a lot of grief from everyone looking over their shoulder. Still, in my opinion they are overpaid, especially considering the low education requirements for the jobs. These three jobs aren't being paid so well because of the danger or grief or value to society - they are paid that much because they have unions that basically blackmail the city government.

There are no paid firefighters in my city, and to get paid that much as a teacher requires your Masters degree. So like megaplayboy said, what job that requires a 6 year degree gets paid less?

EDIT: Also in case it wasn't clear where I was going: In order to get the "large paycheck" Firefighters get, they typically have to work a few years for free.

[Orion]

So have you applied, if the criteria are so low and the pay so excessive?

No need - I make a good living working for the state government. I've been doing it long enough that dropping out of the state retirement system would require a much better job than any of these offer. For that matter, I'd only consider a job teaching children if the only other option was living under a bridge, and I'd really have to think about it for a while first.

[Orion]

A 1st year associate at a large law firm makes 160,000 a year, with a chance for a bonus of up to 40,000 dollars. A starting doctor, post-residency, will make 100,000 to 250,000, depending on specialty. A United States Congressperson makes 168,000 a year plus an awesome array of perks and benefits. Investment bankers do quite well for themselves, of course. With whom are you comparing those salaries and concluding they're overpaid?

Most factory workers, at least in this area. Grocery store employees. Mall store managers. Etc. Being a policemen or fireman does not take any more education than what I've just mentioned. While many might have a college education, it isn't needed for the job. It takes a certain type of personality to do the jobs, but not education. I know I'm in the minority, but I do not see police and fire fighters being that special, and think getting an average salary for the area should be enough.

As for the lawyers, doctors, and such you mention, I think they are in the grossly overpaid category, but that's a topic for another thread.

[megaplayboy]

Most factory workers, at least in this area. Grocery store employees. Mall store managers. Etc. Being a policemen or fireman does not take any more education than what I've just mentioned. While many might have a college education, it isn't needed for the job. It takes a certain type of personality to do the jobs, but not education. I know I'm in the minority, but I do not see police and fire fighters being that special, and think getting an average salary for the area should be enough.

As for the lawyers, doctors, and such you mention, I think they are in the grossly overpaid category, but that's a topic for another thread.

Actually, lawyers tend to fall into a bifurcated set of pay groups: corporate attorneys, and everyone else. Corporate attorneys make 120k+, depending on firm and city and number of years in practice. Everybody else tends to start out between 30 and 60k, moving up slowly and, if they're in government, eventually topping out around 100-170k(i.e., GS15). Part of what drives up salaries for the corporate attorneys(and the doctors, for that matter), is the student loan debt(plus the high cost of malpractice insurance for doctors).
Managing a mall store and potentially putting yourself in harm's way on a regular basis are two different things. If the mall store manager had to fight fires or arrest possibly-armed criminals, they would ask for a substantial raise. If they had to teach a room full of kids, ditto. It's not just the qualifications, it's the rigors and demands of the position.