My Failed Project

[Checkmate]

In another thread I was reminded of a project I started but I failed miserably in what I was trying to do.

As a lot of you know, I've always been a fan of the low DEX low SPD campaigns. It's actually more than that. I like lower stats in general. One of my favorite sayings "If you give an artist a magic ring, that shouldn't give him the ability to beat up a whole special forces unit without that ring." Referring of course to Kyle Rainer as Green Lantern. A former GM of mine kept anyone defined as a normal in the normal range. If your superpower wasn't superhuman speed and dexterity, you didn't have a 23 DEX, and rarely approached 20. For example, Kyle Rainer Green Lantern would have a DEX around 8 when he first gets the ring, and probably 13 (which, in our world is twice as fast as 8. Every 5 points doubling any primary characteristic). Batman would have a 4 SPD and around 18-20 DEX.

With that in mind (and a few more rules) I decided to make some real world characters. I started with the X-Men and I did Captain America, but what I discovered was what I was doing was not making the characters I saw in the comics, I was making them playable. I started giving them Armored Costumes for defenses even if the comics didn't have them. I went from a 350pt guideline to doing everything I could to fit them into 350pts, even if it meant ditching some things they should have. I finally realized how messed up it all was when Angel came out with a 20 DEX and a seriously armored costume.

So I gave up on the whole thing. There are some characters here though, so figured I'd link them. You could take out some of the combat skill levels beef up their speed, and might be useful to someone: Here

[Savinien]

This doesn't take into account the 'olympic level' athlete syndrome, does it?

Seriously, I feel similarly, but as with all things, 'Everything is relative'. If your 'supers', albeit we're dealing with weaponmaster types, are only in that range, how low are your normals? Is there enough granularity in the HERO system this way?

You should have a look at Honor Guard at Hero Central, maybe?

[Checkmate]

Normals were rarely stat'd out. They were more like furniture. It did mean super agent battles could get a little hairy, but there were 8 DEX/2 SPD, we just used fewer of them and didn't have the mass battles.

[Bloodstone]

I think one of the big things you have to accept is that not everyone is built on the same points.

The second thing you have to ask is what you want to simulate.

That said, not a bad attempt at a 350pt Nightcrawler writeup. But you were definitely bending the way his powers work to fit him into the point totals. For example, putting his shadow blending into the MP seems wrong. It's a persistent ability that works even when he's knocked out... and it definitely doesn't leave the stench of brimstone...

Cap with an 18 STR is way, way too low for me. He's been shown to bench press 1100 lbs. LINKY (that takes a STR of about 24 for the record...)

Again though, not a bad write up for 350 pts and obviously if the objective is to reduce stats that epic, still not surpassed IRL bench press needs to be ignored.

[Maccabe]

Just because your attempt didn't meet your expectations doesn't mean it failed. It was a learning experience at least
Why do the X-Men or any other established characters have to exist in your world ? If the players want to meet them for some reason you can always have them do a cameo or just say they are too busy etc. Save yourself alot of headaches, please.

[Checkmate]

I think one of the big things you have to accept is that not everyone is built on the same points.

Yeah I Thought if I set limits I'd be more likely to stay with the spirit of the character rather than try to fit in everything I've ever seen the character do. It turned out to backfire on me, as you saw with Nightcrawler (which is REALLY embarrassing since I JUST called someone else out for doing the same thing: Applying limits on a MP that don't limit every power).

The second thing you have to ask is what you want to simulate.

I'm not really trying to simulate the comics, I wanted to see if I could get the characters that have normal human origins, normal human stats. I still think I can do it, but my next attempt will be to make a list instead of full characters, for example:
STR 8 - Mirror Master, Normal Guy
STR 9 - Weak man, Hypohuman
Then do the same thing with DEX on down.

That said, not a bad attempt at a 350pt Nightcrawler writeup. But you were definitely bending the way his powers work to fit him into the point totals. For example, putting his shadow blending into the MP seems wrong. It's a persistent ability that works even when he's knocked out... and it definitely doesn't leave the stench of brimstone...

Yeah that was a major flub. There are new limits on Invis. that I'd use instead if I were to do it again (Chameleon)

Cap with an 18 STR is way, way too low for me. He's been shown to bench press 1100 lbs.linky(that (takes a STR of about 24 for the record...)

Yeah there are a lot of examples in the comics my project was going to ignore. For example Kyle Rainer beat up every inmate in a prison without his ring. Those were the things I was against.

Again though, not a bad write up for 350 pts and obviously if the objective is to reduce stats that epic, still not surpassed IRL bench press needs to be ignored.

Thanks, and yeah there were a lot of things I had to look past.

[Checkmate]

Just because your attempt didn't meet your expectations doesn't mean it failed. It was a learning experience at least
Why do the X-Men or any other established characters have to exist in your world ? If the players want to meet them for some reason you can always have them do a cameo or just say they are too busy etc. Save yourself alot of headaches, please.

Yeah as I said to Bloodstone next time I'll just start with a list.

It wasn't so much to use them in a game, it was more to see how they'd come out.

[ParagonAlpha]

I just checked out your builds and I have to say they are very elegant. I only noticed a couple of things that raised questions.

Nightcrawler's Invisibility was already mentioned so nothing needs to be added.

Captain America's Shield was built very nicely, simple and effective. The only thing I would have added was some KB Resistance to the shield, after all the shield absorbs kinetic energy.

Wolverine's Side Effect on his Claws isn't really a side effect with his regeneration ability.

I'm not a fan of low DEX/SPD Heroes. I prefer averages in the 18-23 DEX and 5-7 SPD. The DEX you gave most characters actually fit in this range a bit (a few exceptions) but the SPD were too low for my taste. But considering what your intent was I understand and agree with your assessment.

You could get away without buying Armor for most character and buy a level or two of Combat Luck. This is very appropriate for Marvel characters. Plus you really don't need much rDEF in a Marvel setting.

If you assume the average joe has an 8 DEX/2 SPD most of the characters you designed would get at least one extra action a Turn, as well as act first in segment 12. You gave all the characters a Martial Art (inherent OCV and DCV bonuses) as well a a Martial Dodge. Captain America has a 9 DCV when throwing a Cross, giving an average thug a 5- chance to even hit him.

The builds you created are very well done and thought out. The Martial Manuever give you some free space to lower the Defenses a little and still make characters effective and not too vulnerable. The 1-2 extra SPD give the characters plenty of time to act before the average hoodlum. All in all a great job.

[Zed-F]

Low DEX/SPD is perfectly fine if you want a certain feel for your game, but I wouldn't use it for most published supers. Most published supers are portrayed as being able to take out whole mobs of agents by themselves. If you have too little distinction between normals and supers, the agents become much more likely to win, especially when you start factoring in things like teamwork as well. While putting published supers in a low DEX/SPD campaign may be more 'realistic' in some measures, it nevertheless is unfaithful to the characters as portrayed in the comics, which for published characters I feel is more important than realism.

Moreover, it also becomes more difficult to distinguish effectively between heroic-level agents and special forces types, as compared with Joe Normal. If you start with supers who are supposed to be able to beat mobs of agents, and then move them to a low DEX/SPD model for increased 'realism', but still want them to be able to beat said agent mob, you just wind up damaging the realism of the world the supers live in. If you compress everything to the point where you put a regular agent at DEX 8 SPD 2, then you wind up with agents who can easily lose to a civilian in a fist fight. This seems out of scale to me; agent training should count for more than a WF, some fancy gear, and a couple levels.

I've found low DEX/SPD works better for a supers campaign using homebrewed supers. I prefer to consider the world setting first, and then decide where I want supers to fit in it. So for me, a regular normal or an untrained thug is DEX 8 SPD 2, a regular soldier or agent is DEX 11 SPD 3, and a special forces soldier or elite agent is DEX 14 SPD 3. Then I can decide where I want supers to fit in that model. And if the supers are supposed to be low-powered, with DEX under NCM for the most part, then it follows naturally that agents ARE a threat to supers... and that's ok, because I am using a homebrewed group of supers in a homebrewed setting, so that just becomes the status quo for that particular campaign world. Being able to defeat whole mobs of agents by one's self becomes the exception, rather than the norm as it is in published comics.

[Checkmate]

This is kind of hard to explain so bare with me:

If you think of every genre as its own separate comic: Super Agents is separate from Super Heroes, things work out. In a Super Agents game, the characters can have whatever stats they want. They typically don't interact with Super Hero level characters in the form of fights where both Agents and Supers have to be stat'd out, so id doesn't really matter.

Now let's say you want a group of supers to fight VIPER agents. Supers will generally be around 3 SPD, 11-18 DEX while the agents are 2 SPD/ 8 DEX. Now you're asking about non-agent normals, where would I put them. The answer is I don't put them anywhere. Regular Joes are plot devices. Most GM's don't bother to figure out the DEF/BODY of every chair the PC's sit on, I treat normals the same way. If I want an Agent to take out a normal he does. If I want a normal to get away, he does. They're plot devices.

Now when super agents interact with regular superheroes, for example, SHIELD agents working with Captain America, the Agents are typically only a little behind the supers and can generally keep up (Colonel Flag could keep up with Batman etc.).

As far as being able to take out hundreds of agents on their own, well that's what I didn't like and was working to change.

[Bloodstone]

The ability to clear a room full of agents and dodge bullets does not require above average DEX and SPD though. That's definitely one way to do it and considering the price of DEX, it may be one of the cheapest. But this is the HERO System so it certain isn't the only way to do it...

- PRE attacks
- Spreading attacks (possibly combined with Rapid Fire)
- AoE/Autofire
- Superior CVs (through levels, martial arts, etc)
- Extra (possibly limited) Defenses
- Superskill type power constructs for just such an occasion.
- Use good tactics. Agents dumb!
- I believe there rules in either Ninja Hero or UMA for allowing the Heroes to automatically one shot any thug they can hit. Another rule is only allowing named characters to take Recoveries so that agents tire easily and don;t get up when knocked out.
- Agents do flee, surrender and play dead when faced with a superior foe. They don't all need to fight to the death/KO.

This is all assuming that you WANT to simulate that of course...

[Zed-F]

They typically don't interact with Super Hero level characters in the form of fights where both Agents and Supers have to be stat'd out, so id doesn't really matter.

I don't find that this approach works for me. If I have a superagent NPC assisting the PCs, and they get into a fight, the NPC isn't just going to hide for the whole fight. If I come up with a scenario where superagents and superheroes interact, along with regular agents, soldiers, and/or civilians, I want to be able to handle that within my campaign. I may well want to run more than one game at different power levels in the same world, and if I do, things should still make sense relative to one another. They should scale in an appropriate fashion to fit every potential power level I might want to run in that campaign world.

agents are 2 SPD/ 8 DEX. Now you're asking about non-agent normals, where would I put them. The answer is I don't put them anywhere.

Again, I don't find that approach works well for me. What if I want to run a game where the PCs are, in effect, normals, for part or all of the game? For example, suppose I want to start them off as 25+25 or 0+25 characters and have them discover or develop powers in play? If one of these PCs, as a starting character, decides to pick a fight with a VIPER agent, that VIPER agent had better have more than a DEX 8 SPD 2 going for him, if I want to have something approaching realistic odds that an untrained PC can take down a trained agent or soldier. It is not realistic to suggest that the kinds of physical and mental preparation a soldier or agent undertakes fails to improve their physical coodination and reaction time; as such, they should have better DEX and SPD than your typical 0+25 normal, and comparable DEX and SPD to a 25+25 normal who has some combat training (e.g. DEX 11, SPD 3).

Once you've decided how normals, agents/soldiers, and elite agents/soldiers scale relative to one another in your campaign world, it's much easier to fit in the fantastic (action heroes, super-agents, and superheroes) in a way that is internally consistent. If I were to leave normals out of that equation, I would be doing myself a disservice, especially considering they are the base from which all other power levels are derived.

As far as being able to take out hundreds of agents on their own, well that's what I didn't like and was working to change.

Sure. I agree with this approach for my own campaign worlds. I just don't think it fits well for published supers in their own published campaign worlds. If you want to stipulate that this is an alternate 'Earth-X' sort of world that's based on the comics but explicitly not the same world, and that different ground rules apply, I suppose that's a reasonable approach. But in that case, I would expect that such changes to the default assumptions pertaining to the comics to be spelled out in advance (which I'm sure you do) and I would expect the campaign to explore the ramifications of such changes on the campaign world. Supers would become far less all-important than they are in the comic books, for instance, so how does that alter the world setting?

But this is the HERO System so it certain isn't the only way to do it...<snip alternate methods>

While that's true, most of those options have to be explicitly purchased. Not every published character in the comics purchases such abilities. On the other hand, if your average DEX/SPD for a campaign is 23/5, and your average agent is DEX 11/SPD 3, then most supers will be able to mop the floor with limited numbers of agents/soldiers by default. As such, the options you describe above simply enhance that to being able to mop the floor with large numbers of agents/soldiers or, in the case of more powerful supers, an effectively unlimited number of agents/soldiers. The latter is closer to what tends to be the default assumption in the realm of published comics.

[Checkmate]

Zed-F,
Let me start with this:

Do you think Kyle Rainer, given his concept of an artist who gets a ring, should be able to beat up a whole SEAL team without his ring?

This is the premise my whole system was based on. Most people think that yes he should. In the comics he could, the Champions products reflect this ect. If you answer yes to this question, then my system isn't going to do it for you. It's not going to simulate what you want. If you answer "no, but I don't see a real way to fix it," we'll talk

[Zed-F]

I think Kyle Rainer, in the world Kyle Rainer lives in in the comic books, should be built to do what Kyle Rainer does in the comic books. It's called being true to the source -- which trumps realism.

I think a GL homage character with an identical background to Kyle Rainer, in a gameworld that is built to a more realistic standard than is presented in the comics, should not be able to beat up a whole SEAL team without his ring.

I think the distinction is both clear and valid. As far as how to do it, I've already described how I'd do it, so obviously I do see ways to do it quite clearly.

[Moonblade]

I personally am all in favor of reducing spds and dexs. It makes a speedy villian that much more impressive. The write-ups are, I agree with the others, better than you might think. For Cap, the only real thing I'd change is that every physical stat would max out. He is, by definition, the peak of human physical achievement (I.E. 20s in STR DEX CON BOD, 8 PD/ED 50 END 50 Stun) that's what the Super Soldier Serum gave him.

For Cyclops, I'd have his EBs be always on and have a hefty Supress in an OAF (Limitation - Only to supress his powers). I think that captures his optic blasts and disadvantages better than the Disad you have there now. Maybe an END Pool because his beam seems to run a long time and doesn't seem tied to his personal stamina.