[B]Is anyone else pissed over 2004?[/B]

[TheImperialKhan]

I don't don't know about the rest of you but when I saw that Pulp Hero and Ultimate Armor had been wanked from the 2004 schedule I frigging saw RED!

I've been waiting for new material for JI/Pulp Hero for almost twenty years. I've been waiting in great anticipation for Ultimate Armor since it was originally announced back in the 90s! I was royally annoyed in 2002 when I found out that I would have to wait until late 2004, another 2+ years, before DOJ would get around to them. But I consoled myself with the fact that at least I had a year of publication.

Only to learn just now that DOJ isn't publishing them in 2004 after all. They've been pulled in favor of more material for Fantasy Hero, something I have absolutely no interest in at all, and pushed back to some nebulous date in the future. After waiting this long I'm being told "Just buy what we give you and stop complaining, old man. Maybe we'll get around to it before you croak." You'll pardon me if I don't hold my breath!

Now right here at these boards a few months ago Pulp Hero was voted the Genre book we most wanted. And in an even more recent poll the Powered Armor Archtype rated the top spot. Only to be ignored on the 2004 schedule. So again I ask the question: Am I the only one who's pissed about this?

[keithcurtis]

Sorry you didn't get what you wanted, IK. But future schedule are always tentative. There are plenty of folks (like myself) overjoyed at the amount of FH material underway. I don't think DoJ wans to diversify too quickly.

Keith "Always in motion is the future" Curtis

[TechnoViking]

Originally posted by TheImperialKhan
I don't don't know about the rest of you but when I saw that Pulp Hero and Ultimate Armor had been wanked from the 2004 schedule I frigging saw RED!

I'm disappointed that Pulp Hero will not be out till 2005, but I'm not mad. I think the 2004 schedule is great. Did you ever think you would see 18 Hero System books in a year. 18!!!

Now I think the delay for Pulp Hero is the research can be done so it can be done right. I would rather wait a year and have a high quality book rather than so-so book.

Only to learn just now that DOJ isn't publishing them in 2004 after all. They've been pulled in favor of more material for Fantasy Hero, something I have absolutely no interest in at all, and pushed back to some nebulous date in the future.

Ok your ONE PERSON who cares less about Fantasy Hero, most people I know can't wait till it is released. I think Fantasy Hero is a better seller than Justice Inc. ever was.

DOJ is a company who must make money to stay in business. It seems like that Steve, Darren, and the gang seem always open to comments (believe I have given them some weird ones ) and I do think they listen. But in the end they have to do what will make the company profitable.

Mike

[Steve Long]

To clarify: we have never, to my knowledge, promised either Pulp Hero or The Ultimate Armor as 2004 releases, as you seem to think and imply. We (or, actually, I) have stated on more than one occasion that they would not be on the 2004 schedule, for very good reasons (specifically, the time I need to research and write them, which I don't have room for in the schedule this year or next).

You're free to dislike the 2004 schedule if you want, for whatever reasons you want. But please don't distort the facts when voicing your complaints.

[Monolith]

Originally posted by TheImperialKhan
After waiting this long I'm being told "Just buy what we give you and stop complaining, old man. Maybe we'll get around to it before you croak." You'll pardon me if I don't hold my breath!

As anyone who knows me can attest, I have a difficult time dealing with negativity. Not just negativity toward Hero Games or Hero products, but negativity in general, so I will try to only address this one point.

I do not believe anyone from DOJ said to "just buy what we give you and stop complaining." I think what DOJ was saying was "This is what we think we can do next year. I hope you like it." Those are two very different things.

[Derek Hiemforth]

DOJ cannot please everyone. It's flat-out impossible. All they can do is put together a publishing schedule that they think makes sense in terms of customer interest, scheduling, and profitability.

You're upset that Fantasy Hero support books are coming before Pulp Hero. Well, I know many Hero gamers who would have been upset if it was the other way around. Now what is DOJ supposed to do?

Let's have a little perspective, here. Assuming Pulp Hero is the big genre book for 2005, then it will be coming out in DOJ's fourth year of controlling the Hero Games name and line. In those four years, they will have also put out genre books for Supers, Sci-Fi, Martial Arts, Fantasy, and Modern Adventure, as well as dozens of support books (including support books for each genre book), and several Ultimate books.

Four years.

In the four years prior to DOJ taking over, Hero Games/Cybergames came out with... let's see... ONE book. And the only things in it related to the HERO System were some Fuzion characters that had been hastily-converted to 4th Edition Hero.

I'll take DOJ any day.

I for one am glad that they're putting support books for each genre book on the schedule, even it means other genre books have to get pushed back. Failure to support genres other than Supers is what prevented the HERO System from being taken seriously as a universal system in the past. If we ever want HERO System to be a serious player in anything other than Supers, then there have to be support books for other genres. And when Pulp Hero does make it on to the schedule, then it will benefit from this philosophy too, as we get nifty two-fisted derring-do goodness to go with Pulp Hero.

[SAVeira]

Originally posted by Derek Hiemforth
DOJ cannot please everyone. It's flat-out impossible. All they can do is put together a publishing schedule that they think makes sense in terms of customer interest, scheduling, and profitability.

You're upset that Fantasy Hero support books are coming before Pulp Hero. Well, I know many Hero gamers who would have been upset if it was the other way around. Now what is DOJ supposed to do?

Let's have a little perspective, here. Assuming Pulp Hero is the big genre book for 2005, then it will be coming out in DOJ's fourth year of controlling the Hero Games name and line. In those four years, they will have also put out genre books for Supers, Sci-Fi, Martial Arts, Fantasy, and Modern Adventure, as well as dozens of support books (including support books for each genre book), and several Ultimate books.

Four years.

In the four years prior to DOJ taking over, Hero Games/Cybergames came out with... let's see... ONE book. And the only things in it related to the HERO System were some Fuzion characters that has been hastily-converted to 4th Edition Hero.

I'll take DOJ any day.

I for one am glad that they're putting support books for each genre book on the schedule, even it means other genre books have to get pushed back. Failure to support genres other than Supers is what prevented the HERO System from being taken seriously as a universal system in the past. If we ever want HERO System to be a serious player in anything other than Supers, then there have to be support books for other genres. And when Pulp Hero does make it on to the schedue, then it will benefit from this philosophy too, as we get nifty two-fisted derring-do goodness to go with Pulp Hero.

Very well said. Collecting HERO books was a snap for my wallet in the old days, because there was no product. My wallet may hurt with DOJ in charge, but I am happy that they run the show.


S.A. Veira

[TheImperialKhan]

Originally posted by Steve Long
To clarify: we have never, to my knowledge, promised either Pulp Hero or The Ultimate Armor as 2004 releases, as you seem to think and imply. We (or, actually, I) have stated on more than one occasion that they would not be on the 2004 schedule, for very good reasons (specifically, the time I need to research and write them, which I don't have room for in the schedule this year or next).

You're free to dislike the 2004 schedule if you want, for whatever reasons you want. But please don't distort the facts when voicing your complaints.

Pulp Hero was listed as a probable for late 2004 on the old 2004 page which you just today replaced. I can also recall your stating on the old boards, which can no longer be accessed, that you were looking forward to writing it. While it wasn't set in stone, nothing else on the schedule for 2004 was either and they all seem to have made it onto the new schedule, and quite a bit more besides.

If you find that you lack the time to write the book might I suggest that Mr. Allston or Mr. Stackpole, who along with Mr. Peterson wrote the original JI, would be able to take care of that for you. And as I now know how difficult the editing process is I volunteer to work on the book to make certain that it's formatted correctly in accordance with the Writer's Guidelines, and at no charge. This would reduce the amount of time you need to spend on it down as low as I can think to bring it.

As for Ultimate Armor although it was not actually on the schedule I remember your saying somewhere, probably in a post here at the boards, that it would be one of the first Ultimate books. UMA is out, Ultimate Vehicle is out, and Ultimate Brick and Ultimate Mystic are now on the schedule. But still no Ultimate Armor. It looks more like this will be one of the last Ultimate books rather than one of the first.

Mind you, I'm not complaining about the number of books on the schedule. Or even the titles themselves really. Sorry if I kinda bashed FH, I actually find the setting books kind of interesting. But I'm terribly disappointed that Pulp Hero has again gotten lost in the shuffle. And I'm very worried that when the 2005 schedule comes out it wont be there either, or on 2006, 2007, 2008 etc. It's almost as though the old pre-DOJ pattern is back, at least where the games that I most enjoy are concerned.

[TechnoViking]

Originally posted by TheImperialKhan
Pulp Hero was listed as a probable for late 2004 on the old 2004 page which you just today replaced. I can also recall your stating on the old boards, which can no longer be accessed, that you were looking forward to writing it. While it wasn't set in stone, nothing else on the schedule for 2004 was either and they all seem to have made it onto the new schedule, and quite a bit more besides.

Pulp Hero will be a big project, probably why is got nix from 2004. You can only have so many big projects in a year. I know that Steve has a soft spot for Dark Champions, and it is his company

If you find that you lack the time to write the book might I suggest that Mr. Allston or Mr. Stackpole, who along with Mr. Peterson wrote the original JI, would be able to take care of that for you. And as I now know how difficult the editing process is I volunteer to work on the book to make certain that it's formatted correctly in accordance with the Writer's Guidelines, and at no charge. This would reduce the amount of time you need to spend on it down as low as I can think to bring it.

MUST CONTROL FINGERS OF FLAMES!!! Ok, really I understand that you are miffed that Pulp Hero is not coming out, but you can not seriously except DOJ to pay a the expense of hiring Aaron Alliston or Steve Peterson (who is not in the RPG biz any more) and have an unknown editor produce a major product just to please you. That is really naive thinking.

It's almost the old pre-DOJ pattern is back, at least where the games that I most enjoy are concerned.

Well... poop occurs. Sorry you feel this way. My suggestion is to support Hero Games with the products you like and not get the others. I'm sure they will understand. I'm sure Pulp Hero will come out, just not soon.

Also, FREd pretty much has most the talents that were in the original JI (except Aura Reading, and some I probably forgot). That is the beauty of the Hero System, if something is not there you have the tools to make it. Try converting/writing some rules for a Pulp genre. Probably a better use of your energy.

Mike "Your Frieldly Neighborhood Flamer Man" Basinger

[Quasar2k]

Originally posted by TheImperialKhan
So again I ask the question: Am I the only one who's pissed about this?

Offhand, I'd say... yes....

I read your posts on this topic carefully, and while I can see your point, I can really only come up with one appropriate response:

Lighten up.

First off, here's a news flash- the world ain't perfect, and we don't always get what we want.

Secondly, utilizing your own logic, if it's only the games that interest "you", the epononmous "you", then DoJ shouldn't bother to print anything other than Champions products for the next two years, 'cause that's all I'm interested in- and I have almost 2000 posts worth of HEROphiles on my side. The guys at DoJ are working their collective rear ends off to keep putting quality, intelligent product on the shelves as quickly as possible. The pool of acceptable talent is unfortunately quite small in the industry at large; factor in to that the stringent requirements of both form and content inherent in a HERO product and you get a decidedly smaller number. This isn't the d20 field here, where anybody can slap something down and get it published (a gross exaggeration, I know, but you explain to me 50 3ed books in a year); no, this is the big leagues. If you think you have what it takes to cut it, then by all means, submit a proposal and see what happens- maybe you'll get Pulp Hero out faster that way. Beyond that, though, if you honestly believe Steve or Darren is going to let you edit a major genre book untested, you'd probably better switch to decaf.

I will go on the record by saying I honestly don't care for Fantasy Hero much either, but I care even less for Pulp Hero. However, I can easily understand the dizzying amount of work that would go into such a project to make sure it's right. Especially when the immediate reward for all of that effort is some yutz on these boards going off about "how much it sucked" or "X wasn't right; I would've done this!" Some days I honestly don't see why Steve and Darren bother. Oh, wait, yeah, I do know: because they're committed to keeping HERO alive.

As far as the Ultimate Armor goes, there's plenty of stuff already out there that can easily adapt to whatever needs you may have- the Ultimate Vehicle seems to be the primer I will use when I start building my armor suits for the game I'm running.

Thirdly, and most importantly, who taught you manners? If I teed off on somebody like that in the real world, my father'd whomp my butt into the hospital without breaking stride- and I'm thirty years old. Perhaps it's a touch old-fashioned, but a little civility would probably carry a bit more weight. Too many people dismiss you out of hand when you start screaming about how pissed off you are about the 2004 schedule. Maybe you should count your blessings there IS a 2004 schedule.

[GradonSilverton]

PATIENCE... YOU MUST LEARN PATIENCE!!!!

I'd rather waite for a great, well thought out and researched book than one that had been thrown together hastly to make it to publishing.....

Thats what computer RPG companies do....and frankly, the early releases SUCK! I despise the fact that their are nearly 16 pages of 5th ED Errata for me to review....I know you cant find all problems (not a knock against anyone) but I'd rather more time have been taken for review ect before publishing.

All good things come to those who wait!

[Toadmaster]

While I was a bit disappointed that Justice Inc didn't make it onto the 2004 schedule I was actually more surprised and pleased by how much of the material was not Champions. I am glad to see DoJ is not following the old HERO games model of producing 20 Champions books for every non-Champions book produced (perhaps a slight exageration). I think they are doing a good job of pushing HERO as a Universal system instead of a supers game that kinda works for other stuff too. In the past with the exception of FH the only non Champions material was the genre book and nothing else seemed to come along for that genre. StarHERO and FantasyHERO were givens from a commercial stand point because those traditionally have been the most successful RPG's. I'm glad to see them well supported even if I would have liked to see more genre books.

Something I find rather odd is how many people here get upset about waiting for their pet genre, I assume most of us are long term HERO gamers and most of the popular genres were covered in 4th ed or the earlier DI and JI, FH actually has a 3rd and 4th ed plus some source books. For those who didn't buy them before some are still available as PDF's and finally these are primarily background, not rules so whats the big deal about buying CoC, D&D, Boothill, Daredevils etc and converting them over, even if DoJ brought out the genre book I'm sure many would still buy these related products for the additional material offered.

[TheImperialKhan]

It seems from the responses that I've gotten that this board is nothing but a cheering section and anyone who isn't cheering is immediately squashed.

To point out a couple of things that some people seem to have missed.

1.) DOJ had no trouble affording Mr. Allston's work on the Champions genre book. As such there is no reason to assume they couldn't afford him for Pulp Hero. Add in the fact that Allston loves the genre and had considerable material that he wanted to write for it, as referenced through his website. I don't think it would take much convincing to bring him aboard for the project and DOJ might even convince him to do it for a bit less money.

2.) I offered to re-format the manuscript where needed. Getting the material into the right format is very time-consuming but also pretty simple and requiring no decision-making what-so-ever. By rights it should be done by the author but it often isn't. It's one of Steve's biggest headaches and eats up a huge amount of time. I know this because Steve told me. Since it's more-or-less scut work why shouldn't DOJ use me, or whoever is willing, to do it.

3.) I've waited almost 20 years for new JI/Pulp Hero material. Don't you think that that's pretty damned patient? I certainly do.

And Quasar2k, no offense but I don't need a lecture on manners from you. I need to vent once in a while or I'll wind in the hospital with another heart attack. I'd really rather avoid that. I might not be so lucky the next. You don't mind do you.

[GradonSilverton]

Originally posted by TheImperialKhan
It seems from the responses that I've gotten that this board is nothing but a cheering section and anyone who isn't cheering is immediately squashed.

The response you've gotten in this THREAD is just not the one you were wanting....when you posted the question you came in with guns blazing, and frnakly everyone else reached for their weapons and started firing back, thats human nature. Now as for else where in this board, I dont see it. I've read many a post about problems with Hero (system, books, etc.) as well as many who prefer other systems and why (there is a decent thread about Mutants and Masterminds vs Hero).

Steve was a little straight foward in his reply for this post b/c I'm sure he believes (and wether you are him are correct in what you disagree about we/I dont know) that you put out mis-information...along with the guns blazing analogy again. When you replied with back handed attacks (like inferring Steve chainged the 2004 page just to make you look wrong), you then draw the wrath of everyone else who believe in what Steve puts together as a whole...attacking his character opens yourself up to attacks on your character.

And YES you do need a lecture in manners. Discussion Boards are meant to be places of debate, ideas, etc. When you go personal, debates turn ugly, and when its your fault they turn ugly, you need to rethink your course in the debate.

[Koshka]

Just to establish my position here, if JI/Pulp Hero were coming out in 2004 I would be first in line at the doors to the GenCon dealers room, credit card in hand. I'll probably pick up Fantasy Hero, but it's not as big a thing for me.

That said, I'm not ticked over the 2004 schedule. They've got a ton of work crammed into that year. There's no way they can fit a good Pulp Hero in as well, and I'm just as glad they don't want to fit a not-so-good Pulp Hero into the schedule. Yes, there's a couple books I think they could cut to make room for Pulp Hero IF I were the only customer whose opinion mattered, but we all know better than that .

A friend of mine tried to talk me into sending in a proposal to write Pulp Hero myself. Fortunately, I'd already seen on the old boards that Steve called dibs on that one, so I didn't waste any of my time putting the proposal together (or any of Steve's time turning it down ). However, I do know a lot about the period, so I have some idea of just how much research this is going to take. So he can't get it done in 2004, it'll get done. Having the Line Developer interested in writing the book is good enough evidence for me that it's not going to be used as a "bait-n-switch" book, constantly pushed back to keep people interested.