Equipment Issues

[Steve Long]

Hi folx! Here are some thoughts about rules pertaining to equipment and gear that have occurred to me over the years, along with my brief thoughts on them. I’m posting them here to stimulate discussion, but not to limit or restrict it. These aren’t necessarily all the issues about equipment that could be considered, nor the only thoughts about them. Feel free to post anything here that you think is relevant and reasonably constructive; you don’t have to limit yourself to what I’ve posted.

Regardless of whatever opinion I post on an idea, I’m always willing to be convinced otherwise if you think you can do it. The fact that I’m posting an opinion doesn’t necessarily mean my mind’s made up on an issue; it just indicates my current thinking on the subject.

Periodically I may post other questions and thoughts that occur to me.


Q: Should we change the way Ranged Killing Damage weapons are built?

Steve’s Thoughts: We should. Right now, for some reason dating back to the early days of the rules, they seem to be built with some sort of generic “Killing Damage” power that requires the STR Min Does Not Add To Damage Limitation. The rules should say explicitly that they’re built with RKA and thus don’t qualify for that Limitation.

[James Gillen]

Q: Should we change the way Ranged Killing Damage weapons are built?

Steve’s Thoughts: We should. Right now, for some reason dating back to the early days of the rules, they seem to be built with some sort of generic “Killing Damage” power that requires the STR Min Does Not Add To Damage Limitation. The rules should say explicitly that they’re built with RKA and thus don’t qualify for that Limitation.

Basically that's already the case. You've either got Ranged weapons that do not have STR-added damage and require a STR Limitation (either to pull the bow or resist 'climb' after the shot) or you have weapons that do add STR to damage, which are almost always Melee weapons bought with Ranged Advantage. Like you said, just change the emphasis to make this more clear in the rules.

JG

[Enforcer84]

Hi folx! Here are some thoughts about rules pertaining to equipment and gear that have occurred to me over the years, along with my brief thoughts on them. I’m posting them here to stimulate discussion, but not to limit or restrict it. These aren’t necessarily all the issues about equipment that could be considered, nor the only thoughts about them. Feel free to post anything here that you think is relevant and reasonably constructive; you don’t have to limit yourself to what I’ve posted.

Regardless of whatever opinion I post on an idea, I’m always willing to be convinced otherwise if you think you can do it. The fact that I’m posting an opinion doesn’t necessarily mean my mind’s made up on an issue; it just indicates my current thinking on the subject.

Periodically I may post other questions and thoughts that occur to me.


Q: Should we change the way Ranged Killing Damage weapons are built?

Steve’s Thoughts: We should. Right now, for some reason dating back to the early days of the rules, they seem to be built with some sort of generic “Killing Damage” power that requires the STR Min Does Not Add To Damage Limitation. The rules should say explicitly that they’re built with RKA and thus don’t qualify for that Limitation.

I did not know that.

[steamteck]

Q: Should we change the way Ranged Killing Damage weapons are built?

Steve’s Thoughts: We should. Right now, for some reason dating back to the early days of the rules, they seem to be built with some sort of generic “Killing Damage” power that requires the STR Min Does Not Add To Damage Limitation. The rules should say explicitly that they’re built with RKA and thus don’t qualify for that Limitation.

Works for me . go for it. Although some things like bows would still need a ST Min.

[Lightning91]

Pages 196 to 198 of Fantasy Hero addressed the issue of balancing Armor use in Fantasy Hero campaigns. Although several suggestions on handling the issue were provided, I am not entirely sure any of them were entirely satisfactory.

Perhaps the sixth addition would be an appropriate time to provide a definitive resolution to this issue.

[buzz]

I'd love to see better rules for vehicles. Using vehicles with battlemaps is awkward, and I never really grokked how the map-less vehicle rules were supposed to work. The expanded rules found in books like TUV and SH were just too cumbersome and awkward in play.

In general, I think vehicles and bases are way less important than PCs, and thus don't need detailed rules. A set of mechanics that are easy to use and make for fast play would be a priority for me.

[Susano]

Hi folx! Here are some thoughts about rules pertaining to equipment and gear that have occurred to me over the years, along with my brief thoughts on them. I’m posting them here to stimulate discussion, but not to limit or restrict it. These aren’t necessarily all the issues about equipment that could be considered, nor the only thoughts about them. Feel free to post anything here that you think is relevant and reasonably constructive; you don’t have to limit yourself to what I’ve posted.

Regardless of whatever opinion I post on an idea, I’m always willing to be convinced otherwise if you think you can do it. The fact that I’m posting an opinion doesn’t necessarily mean my mind’s made up on an issue; it just indicates my current thinking on the subject.

Periodically I may post other questions and thoughts that occur to me.


Q: Should we change the way Ranged Killing Damage weapons are built?

Steve’s Thoughts: We should. Right now, for some reason dating back to the early days of the rules, they seem to be built with some sort of generic “Killing Damage” power that requires the STR Min Does Not Add To Damage Limitation. The rules should say explicitly that they’re built with RKA and thus don’t qualify for that Limitation.

Steve, if you recall, back when you were writing Dark Champions I said that exact same thing. Guns are built with some very questionable Limitations (which at the time you didn't want to change for various reasons). So, with 6th on the horizon I say YES! Ranged weapons should have Focus, Charges, STR Min, Real Weapon (and maybe) Beam. The "STR Min Does Not Add To Damage construct violates the basic rule of HERO in that you can't add damage to an RKA with your STR, so why is it a Limitation? Please, make this change!

[Thia Halmades]

Also, while we're on the topic, can be build guns (and bows, and Atl-Atls, and Slings) as "damage delivery systems" and break out the differing ammunition types properly and build them in a game-sanctioned way? The reason I ask is entirely heroic-specific; for an SH game it likely doesn't matter, but:

When you have a resource pool, you tend to put things like, I dunno, guns into it. Lots of guns. Those guns are built as RKA, with their various advantages. Yah, cool. Including their +1 OCV, what have you.

I buy Armor Piercing Ammunition. The average rifle may have 70 some odd real points in it; building it as an NPA is kind of silly, but there needs to be some way (and it isn't in the book now) to know how much that clip of ammunition costs to put into your resource pool. The rules say "adding AP Ammo makes a weapon AP."

Which is cool! But no one knows how much it costs or how we got there. It's just not answered and we are confounded, so I went ahead and took your [Steve's] suggestion from Fantasy HERO, and did exactly as you suggest: I built Bows and Arrows separately. Works great! But I'd love to see the text-canon version of this design philosophy make it into 6th edition.

Along with things like Hard Points for vehicles (even if its just Extra Limbs, only for carrying weapons, stacked with a vehicular form of Gun Muscles).

[BobGreenwade]

Q: Should we change the way Ranged Killing Damage weapons are built?

Steve’s Thoughts: We should. Right now, for some reason dating back to the early days of the rules, they seem to be built with some sort of generic “Killing Damage” power that requires the STR Min Does Not Add To Damage Limitation. The rules should say explicitly that they’re built with RKA and thus don’t qualify for that Limitation.

I'm with you on this 100%, Steve.

Also, I'm strongly of the opinion that the Equipment section should immediately follow the Character Creation section. Let's have all the stuff concerning putting the character together right in one place, instead of having it mostly in one place and then a bit more at the back as it is now.

And most if not all (allowing here that there maybe something I'm forgetting that would make an "impossible construct") of the Power Modifiers currently in this section should go into the Character Creation section. Besides the Automaton Powers, I've come across situations where characters have needed Limited Coverage, Limited Arc Of Fire, and other elements from this section.

[Susano]

I'm with you on this 100%, Steve.

Also, I'm strongly of the opinion that the Equipment section should immediately follow the Character Creation section. Let's have all the stuff concerning putting the character together right in one place, instead of having it mostly in one place and then a bit more at the back as it is now.

And most if not all (allowing here that there maybe something I'm forgetting that would make an "impossible construct") of the Power Modifiers currently in this section should go into the Character Creation section. Besides the Automaton Powers, I've come across situations where characters have needed Limited Coverage, Limited Arc Of Fire, and other elements from this section.

Hmm/.. yes, I'd like to see the Automaton powers allowable for PCs. I can think of a number of fictional characters who have "Does Not Bleed" among other such abilities.

[Thia Halmades]

One of my gripes with 5ER: Not all the limitations are in one place. They really should be, at least in a design sense, so we can find what we're looking for quickly, easily, and above all intuitively. 5ER is a lot of things.

Intuitive is not one of them.

[Susano]

One of my gripes with 5ER: Not all the limitations are in one place. They really should be, at least in a design sense, so we can find what we're looking for quickly, easily, and above all intuitively. 5ER is a lot of things.

Intuitive is not one of them.

Yeah, while its a nice idea to put "STR Does Not Add" only with the Killing Attacks, it would be better if it was with the Limitations, if only to cut down on the book flipping and to make it easier to remember the Limitation is in there in the first place.

[Derek Hiemforth]

Also, while we're on the topic, can be build guns (and bows, and Atl-Atls, and Slings) as "damage delivery systems" and break out the differing ammunition types properly and build them in a game-sanctioned way? The reason I ask is entirely heroic-specific; for an SH game it likely doesn't matter, but:

I agree that this is a "better" route to go for such weapons from both a realism standpoint (even dramatic realism) and a flexibility standpoint. However, I don't think it's better from a simplicity standpoint; for games where there needn't be much focus on the nuts-and-bolts of combat (including many Champions games), this would make "damage delivery system" weapons more complicated than necessary. So I'd prefer to see either the "damage delivery system with separate ammo" approach as an optional rule for increasing detail (with the "consolidated weapon-and-ammo as one item" approach as the standard rule), or the consolidated approach as an optional rule for decreasing detail (with the delivery system approach as the standard rule).

[Derek Hiemforth]

One of my gripes with 5ER: Not all the limitations are in one place.

Yeah, while its a nice idea to put "STR Does Not Add" only with the Killing Attacks, it would be better if it was with the Limitations, if only to cut down on the book flipping and to make it easier to remember the Limitation is in there in the first place.

This is technically a presentation issue, not a rules issue, but I agree that the separations are less intuitive to me than the "all modifiers in one place" approach was. (Though that may be just because I was more used to the other way.)

Perhaps a reasonable compromise approach, that wouldn't add too much extra page count, would be to simply have complete lists (with page references) of all Advantages, all Limitations, all Adders, etc., and include these reference lists in an appendix or in the indices.

[Lord Liaden]

Over on the Limitations thread I brought up the issue of BODY for "equipment" bought as a Focus, so I think I'll leave that there and move on.

Since Steve's initial thought seems to be well dealt with , I'd like to raise the issue of the equipment doubling adder. Frankly, this is one rule I've had trouble swallowing. The distinction of allowing this for Powers built as Foci, but not without that Limitation, seems to reward someone for taking a Limitation, which are supposed to be detrimental rather than beneficial. AFAICT from the rulebook and the FAQ, these doubled Foci are usable in any way that non-focussed Powers would be - Multiple-Power Attacks, stacked Defenses, and so on. So there's no apparent downside to using it versus building two full versions of the Power.

Anyone want to explore this, especially highlighting points I may have overlooked?