Environment Issues

[Chris Goodwin]

Ok, I can buy that. We start with Daylight at 5, there's no top. Is -1 the bottom end of the Blackest Black? Or is there a Blacker Than Black level of light and no bottom end either?

None more black.

[Markdoc]

None more black.

There is a problem with this, in that a -5 penalty is not going to prevent some characters making PER roll.s - which mean they can see (with normal sight) in perfect blackness.

Maybe I'm missing it, but why arbitrarily start at 5 and why arbitrarily make the axis light/darkness? That's a very SFX-directed, non-hero approach.

I like the general concept, but I'd start at 0 (default) and allow an unlimited bonus/penalty buy. That way, you have a smooth mechanical fit. A penalty to PER can be darkness, blinding light or smoke, or a sonic effect that makes everything generally blurry.

cheers, Mark

[Hugh Neilson]

There is a problem with this, in that a -5 penalty is not going to prevent some characters making PER roll.s - which mean they can see (with normal sight) in perfect blackness.

Maybe I'm missing it, but why arbitrarily start at 5 and why arbitrarily make the axis light/darkness? That's a very SFX-directed, non-hero approach.

I like the general concept, but I'd start at 0 (default) and allow an unlimited bonus/penalty buy. That way, you have a smooth mechanical fit. A penalty to PER can be darkness, blinding light or smoke, or a sonic effect that makes everything generally blurry.

I like this approach, although it needs to be priced so that the same cost as equivalent Darkness generates a pretty huge PER roll penalty.

[IndianaJoe3]

Maybe I'm missing it, but why arbitrarily start at 5 and why arbitrarily make the axis light/darkness? That's a very SFX-directed, non-hero approach.

Well, I made the axis light/dark because I'm trying to quantify lightness and darkness. There are other ways to enhance or inhibit visual perception, but they are outside of what I am trying to cover.

Labeling LL 5 as, "Normal Daylight" may seem arbitrary, but it's actually derived from the 5e Sight Modifiers table. It lists, "Dark Night" as a -4 penalty. It seemed like a reasonable boundary for darkness perception penalties (how much darker can things get?), so I used that for LL 0. Now, the penalties are reduced for every LL above zero, and we wind up with no penalties at LL 4.

This is where things get... empirical. Normal interior lighting is less bright than daylight, and daylight itself can vary. To simulate this, I assigned LL 4 to, "Normal Interior Light", LL 5 to, "Normal Daylight", and LL 6 to, "Full Sun". The human eye can adapt to all of those situations, so there is no penalty. If things get brighter than that, we have difficulty seeing in the glare (resulting in penalties for LL 7+).

[Markdoc]

Well, I made the axis light/dark because I'm trying to quantify lightness and darkness. There are other ways to enhance or inhibit visual perception, but they are outside of what I am trying to cover.

Well, OK, that's fair enough, but if we're talking about mechanisms, or rules, then they should be generally applicable, IMO.

Labeling LL 5 as, "Normal Daylight" may seem arbitrary, but it's actually derived from the 5e Sight Modifiers table. It lists, "Dark Night" as a -4 penalty. It seemed like a reasonable boundary for darkness perception penalties (how much darker can things get?), so I used that for LL 0. Now, the penalties are reduced for every LL above zero, and we wind up with no penalties at LL 4.

This is where things get... empirical. Normal interior lighting is less bright than daylight, and daylight itself can vary. To simulate this, I assigned LL 4 to, "Normal Interior Light", LL 5 to, "Normal Daylight", and LL 6 to, "Full Sun". The human eye can adapt to all of those situations, so there is no penalty. If things get brighter than that, we have difficulty seeing in the glare (resulting in penalties for LL 7+).

Ah, OK. I follow your reasoning. Now I just disagree.

If Daylight is default (no penalty) then 0 seems like the right starting place (ie: no penalty). Every level below that inflicts a -1 PER penalty. That way you don't get stuck with the maximum being "slightly darker than a dark night" and you don't have a problem with penalties jumping from -4 to "infinite" in one step. Night scopes and animal eyes demonstrate that there is in fact plenty of light on a dark night (if your PER roll is good enough), and indeed, our cat has no trouble navigating inside the house with closed blinds on a dark night, so "Darker than a dark night" is clearly not "cannot see". In contrast (heh, heh) every level above gives a +1 to PER rolls, so that you can easily adjudicate if Tiny Carl Jung's Lamp of Diogenes (+3 levels) is bright enough to illuminate the shadows in the Cave of Plato (-4 levels: so he can see but darkly )

cheers, Mark

[Markdoc]

I like this approach, although it needs to be priced so that the same cost as equivalent Darkness generates a pretty huge PER roll penalty.

I was thinking that if we used this approach, we could dispense with Darkness entirely, and simply buy it as the appropriate penalties. -5 to your PER rolls would incapacitate most people's sight, and -10 would incapacitate pretty much anybody.

cheers, Mark

[Hugh Neilson]

I was thinking that if we used this approach, we could dispense with Darkness entirely, and simply buy it as the appropriate penalties. -5 to your PER rolls would incapacitate most people's sight, and -10 would incapacitate pretty much anybody.

How do we get to a complete absence of light (ie the guy with IR vision can see perfectly, but the guy with +20 PER rolls can't see at all, even if he rolls a 3)? I recall this being an issue in an old Avengers comics (wasn't even the Darkness power).

[Vulcan]

I like this approach, although it needs to be priced so that the same cost as equivalent Darkness generates a pretty huge PER roll penalty.

Agreed. CE 'darkness' only imposes penalites, not prevents the roll entirely - but at the same base cost, the penalties from CE should be pretty hefty....

[PhilFleischmann]

Right. Which is why I posted this:

Just for the sake of consistancy, level 0 should be defined as the level where there is No Penalty (or bonus), just like it is with the Temperature Levels.

Also, there is no need for a "hard bottom" to the scale, because going beyond a certain level will have rapidly diminishing returns. Buying the LL down to a -20 penalty is not going to give much significant advantage over, say -5.

However, such drastically reduced levels can have one possible use: against characters with Enhanced Vision. If "The Eye" has +10 to his Sight PER rolls, your measly -5 Light Levels CE isn't going to bother him too much. And for every ability in HERO, there should be a way to counter it.

[Chris Goodwin]

Sorry, I was quoting Spinal Tap, not making a rules suggestion. Which apparently went over like... some sort of normally floating object, only made of metal...

[IndianaJoe3]

Night scopes and animal eyes demonstrate that there is in fact plenty of light on a dark night (if your PER roll is good enough), and indeed, our cat has no trouble navigating inside the house with closed blinds on a dark night, so "Darker than a dark night" is clearly not "cannot see".

OK, we may need to move the the point at which sight perception rolls become impossible because there's no light. However, such a point does exist (kind of like absolute zero on a temperature scale). Neither cats nor humans can see when there's no light to see by.

I was thinking that if we used this approach, we could dispense with Darkness entirely, and simply buy it as the appropriate penalties. -5 to your PER rolls would incapacitate most people's sight, and -10 would incapacitate pretty much anybody.

Darkness is good for building things that block perception rolls. It doesn't matter how well Eagle Eye can see - the smoke cloud still blocks his vision. All he can do is see the cloud in incredible detail.

[Steve Long]

Hey folx! It's time for me to start reading all the 6E threads, and that means I need to lock them.

Hopefully 15 months has been plenty of time for anyone who wanted to have a say, to have a say. So please, don't start up other threads to try to continue discussions, send me PMs with points you "just have to make," or anything like that. It's time for y'all to sit back, relax, have a frosty beverage, and let me get 6E written.

We definitely appreciate everyone's interest, participation, and ideas! I'm looking forward to reading the posts and seeing what nuggets of wisdom lurk therein. I have no doubt 6E is going to be even better than it would have been because of our fans' enthusiastic efforts at providing us with input and suggestions.