Combat Issues

[archermoo]

I have. It sucked like an industrial hoover. It was an experiment and one which all participants swore a sacred blood oath never to repeat. Having tried it, it's just a terrible, terrible idea - I can't think of anything you could do to more "d20-ize" Hero system combat. And that's not a complement.



Apart from that one dreadful game, neither have I. Players - especially in Heroic Games - tend to gravitate over time to SPD4, but it's rare for everyone to be there and NPCs can be all over the chart.

Cheers, Mark

You have my sympathy.

[archermoo]

This is a good one. It would eliminate the (IMO) silly move where combatants continuously half move behind each other to get the "From behind" DCV penalty

As a note, HERO doesn't have a "from behind" DCV penalty. There is a Surprised modifier which lists "attack from behind" as one way of getting it. But it also specifically notes that if the defender has good reason to believe that they will be attacked that it probably shouldn't apply. I'm pretty sure if you are fighting someone and they run around behind them to attack they'll still be pretty well aware of what is going on.

[Susano]

As a note, HERO doesn't have a "from behind" DCV penalty. There is a Surprised modifier which lists "attack from behind" as one way of getting it. But it also specifically notes that if the defender has good reason to believe that they will be attacked that it probably shouldn't apply. I'm pretty sure if you are fighting someone and they run around behind them to attack they'll still be pretty well aware of what is going on.

Actually, it does. There is "From Behind" and "From Surprise."

[archermoo]

Make it 10 + OCV + dice roll, rather than 11+. That keeps the probability the same as the current system and is what we what we have been doing for ages. Having run con games and taught many n00bs, the inverted roll is far, far, far easier than the current system. As someone also noted, the block mechanic then also become intuitive - it's essentially an OCV+ roll dice-off.

This approach works a charm and speeds combat significantly even with people who are not hero n00bs, in my experience.

Just thought I'd provide a counter example to this. I've taught quite a number of people HERO over the years, and have never had any of them have any problems grasping and holding on to the idea that you want to roll low to succeed at things but roll high to determine effect. Not one. Until I read about people disliking it here the idea that it could possibly be a problem had never even occured to me.

The way I've pretty much always described attack rolls to people: Roll 3d6. If you roll 11, you hit a DCV equal to your OCV. For every 1 you roll under 11, add 1 to your OCV to determine what DCV you hit. For every 1 you roll over 11 subtract 1 from your OCV to determine what DCV you hit.

Simple, straightforward, fast. Never had anyone have a problem understanding it.

[archermoo]

Actually, it does. There is "From Behind" and "From Surprise."

Steve has noted in the past that the "Attacked from Behind" in combat and out of combat were included in the list on p373 of 5ER for ease of people looking it up, and that it is part of the Surprised modifer explained on p380. Which, as I noted specifically notes that if you know someone is attacking you it doesn't matter if they are doing it from behind or not.

[nexus]

As a note, HERO doesn't have a "from behind" DCV penalty.

Yes it does. Check the table on Page 373. There's a modifier for Attack from Behind in combat and Out of combat.

Steve has noted in the past that the "Attacked from Behind" in combat and out of combat were included in the list on p373 of 5ER for ease of people looking it up, and that it is part of the Surprised modifier explained on p380. Which, as I noted specifically notes that if you know someone is attacking you it doesn't matter if they are doing it from behind or not.

And that ruling is only useful if you saw that particular statement from Steve Long so it would be something to cleared up in the expanding explanation of Facing and its effects on combat in 6th which was what we were talking about. Too many people; many of them on this board have argued that just running around behind some should count as Half DCV. I think that ridiculous and obviously against the spirit of the rules as well.

[Susano]

Just thought I'd provide a counter example to this. I've taught quite a number of people HERO over the years, and have never had any of them have any problems grasping and holding on to the idea that you want to roll low to succeed at things but roll high to determine effect. Not one. Until I read about people disliking it here the idea that it could possibly be a problem had never even occured to me.

The way I've pretty much always described attack rolls to people: Roll 3d6. If you roll 11, you hit a DCV equal to your OCV. For every 1 you roll under 11, add 1 to your OCV to determine what DCV you hit. For every 1 you roll over 11 subtract 1 from your OCV to determine what DCV you hit.

Simple, straightforward, fast. Never had anyone have a problem understanding it.

This method has always worked for me as well. And you never need to be told what the DCV of you foe is.

[Susano]

Steve has noted in the past that the "Attacked from Behind" in combat and out of combat were included in the list on p373 of 5ER for ease of people looking it up, and that it is part of the Surprised modifer explained on p380. Which, as I noted specifically notes that if you know someone is attacking you it doesn't matter if they are doing it from behind or not.

Well I can tell you this started a great deal of discussion in our group about what that meant.

EDIT: and as Nexus said, it only helped if you'd seen Steve's ruling. And since the GM doesn't come to these boards (and I'd never seen said ruling), that didn't help matters much.

[archermoo]

Yes it does. Check the table on Page 373. There's a modifier for Attack from Behind in combat and Out of combat.



And that ruling is only useful if you saw that particular statement from Steve Long so it would be something to cleared up in the expanding explanation of Facing and its effects on combat in 6th.

I agree that clarification in 6th would be a good idea. I was just pointing out that while people may mistakenly assume that any attack from behind automatically results in a DCV modifier that actually isn't the case.

And it isn't just a matter of someone happening to see that ruling. It is after all in the FAQ.

[nexus]

And it isn't just a matter of someone happening to see that ruling. It is after all in the FAQ.

And some haven't read the faq on it since it seems clear. Not every Hero player pours over it or even comes to these boards.I can recall at least two threads on this board over it The point being its not widely spread common knowledge among Hero players and something that important to come should be.

[Susano]

I agree that clarification in 6th would be a good idea. I was just pointing out that while people may mistakenly assume that any attack from behind automatically results in a DCV modifier that actually isn't the case.

And it isn't just a matter of someone happening to see that ruling. It is after all in the FAQ.

Which my GM has never seen. Heck, I haven't looked at it in ages.

[JohnTaber]

Hi Folks: Simple idea...

Suggestion = If you perform a half move before attacking you get -1 on your OCV.

Reasoning = This is intuitive and makes sense to me. I have always used this rule and was surprised to see it go away. Bring it back.

[Cancer]

Erp. I put comments about the SPD Chart and general timekeeping system in the General Rules Thread. If it would be more appropriate to have that here, by all means move the post.

EDIT: link

[JohnTaber]

Suggestion = Somehow add information to the character sheet detailing how armor and hit locations work together.

Reasoning = For some reason the new Hero player in my game has problems with this. If this was on the sheet somehow it would help him get over this issue.

[Vondy]

I agree that clarification in 6th would be a good idea. I was just pointing out that while people may mistakenly assume that any attack from behind automatically results in a DCV modifier that actually isn't the case.

And it isn't just a matter of someone happening to see that ruling. It is after all in the FAQ.

FAQ that!

The rules need to be in one place.
The GM is under no obligation to refer to the FAQ when ruling.
The FAQ is, at this point, a joke when length is considered.