Power Frameworks Issues

[PhilFleischmann]

Yes, Aid used to augment a single power or CHA is pretty much useless as stands - whether it's self only or to aid others.

I don't see at all how it's useless to Aid others.

Because it's useless without those advantages,

A premise I do not grant.

Hugh, ajackson and I have all seen it, so I doubt your claim that "nobody uses self-only aid".

I never made any such claim.

Last off, I didn't suggest that Aid should use UBO differently from any other powers. If Aid becomes a power, that is self-only by default, you should be able to use UBO exactly like any other self-only power like Force Field.

To make an Aid under your proposal that works like Aid currently does - capable of boosting others' powers - then indeed it doesn't work like UBO normally does. UBO gives a power to another. Aid, UBO would allow others to use Aid. If Aid becomes self-only by default, Aid UBO would allow others to take an attack action to use the Aid on themselves. That may be a fine power, but it isn't the way Aid currently works. I don't want to lose the ability to build a power that works the way Aid currently does - like a Drain, or other attack, but it helps the person you hit instead of hurting them.

To make the current Aid from your proposed Aid would require something more like UAA - the other person is *affected* by the power, rather than *given* the ability to use the power.

Other dissimilarities between RAW Aid and your Aid, UBO is the line-of-sight requirement and the limits on the number of people to whom the Aid make be given.

The suggestion of an adder for being able to extend the fade rate is based on two assumptions.
1. keeping the interval for the fade rate the same for each step on the time table - exactly the same as for other powers which use the time table

And which powers would those be? The only Power I can find that has anything to do with a certain amount of time is some of the categories of Life Support, such as needing to eat or breathe less often - and those work the way my proposal does: there's a fixed price per step on the time chart - only up to a certain point - and anything beyond that has a different price (in the case of LS, free).

- is simpler than having different prices for shifting a step.

I still don't see how Adder + Advantage is simpler than two Advantage Values. Or better in any way.

2. Since transfer powers are cumulative, multiple applications which fade slowly are almost as beneficial as a single large application (Depending on where the cap is set). Since the benefit does not scale equally with the dice of the power, an adder seems more appropriate than an advantage. The rule is thus - all adjustment powers can buy the adder: Delayed Fade Rate (maybe +20 points?) and then increase their fade rate up the time table by 1 step per +1/4. That seems pretty simple to me.

I'm not sure what you mean by the bolded phrase above. More dice is more beneficial, regardless of the fade rate, and since you're already paying for the dice, you're already paying for the benefit. That's how Advantages work: a +1/2 Advantage on a 20-point base power only costs 10 points, but the same advantage on a 40-point power costs 20. I'm sure you know that already. I guess I just don't understand your point here. Is this what you mean:

4d6 Aid (Self-only by Default) has a base cost of 20, but it fades 5 points/turn.
Then you add on the +20 Adder so you can reduce the fade rate - you haven't actually reduced it yet, but you've purchased the ability to do so. You've spent 40 points so far, and you've still got 4d6 Aid, that still fades at 5 points/turn.
Then you buy, say +1/2 worth of reduced fade rate, so that it fades at 5 points/5 minutes.
The power now costs (20+20) x 1.5 = 60 points. So you have 4d6 Aid (average roll 14 cp of benefit, to a maximum of 24 cp), that fades at 5 cp per 5 minutes.

Is that what you mean? I understand that you haven't settled on the value of the Adder yet.

[IndianaJoe3]

Just because everyone has Characteristics doesn't mean that Characteristics all have the same SFX. One might reasonably claim that some Characteristics share SFX, but claiming that they all share SFX is like claiming that Mind Scan and Tunneling share SFX because they're both Powers.

The rules say something like "any two powers of the same SFX or any two characteristics".

In 5e, it's "...any two Characteristics or Powers with related special effects simultaneously." I interpret that to mean that the Characteristics would need the same SFX. Did 5er change that?

[ghost-angel]

The wording is the same in 5E and 5ER; and it is also worded as seem that if you had a Characteristic and a Power that chared SFX the +1/2 could affect them both.

I take Characteristic included in the statements to make sure that Players/GMs understand that your Characteristics (as opposed to Characteristic Powers) can also be affected by Adjustment Powers normally.

[Dr.Device]

I posted this early in the thread, but have made a few changes and added some examples.

I think this system has the advantage of keeping almost complete backward compatibility with the current system, while adding flexibility.

I don't think all three frameworks should be combined, but I think Multipowers and Variable Power Pools should be replaced with a more flexible Power Pool concept.
Currently Multipower is a pool of Active points, allocated via slots. VPP is a pool of real points, allocated via control cost. What I am proposing is to allow either (or both) types of allocation to either type of pool.

The following has parts heavily cribbed from various ideas I have seen on these boards. This is a rough draft. I'm not really happy with the term Pool Control that I use, but it was all I could think of at the moment.

Power Pools
A power pool gives you a pool of points that you can distribute between various powers. A pool can be either an Active Point Pool (APP) or a Real Point Pool (RPP). There are plusses and minuses to each type.

Active Point Pool (APP): An APP has a base cost of 1 character point per 1 Active Point in the pool. The total of Active Points of powers allocated in the pool can never exceed the base pool cost. Limitations may be put on the pool cost to lower its Real Point cost. Only limitations which affect every power in the pool may be taken on the pool.
Real Point Pool (RPP): An RPP has a cost of 1 character point per 1 Real Point in the pool. The total Real Points of powers allocated in the pool can never exceed the pool cost. No limitations can be taken on the pool cost.

Allocating Points
For either kind of pool, the points are allocated via slots and/or a pool control.

Slots- A slot is a specific power that can be used from the pool. A slot may be activated as a zero-phase action. To find the cost of a slot, determine what the Real Cost of the power would be if purchased outside the pool. This includes any limitations which affect switching slots, such as extra time to switch slots, or limited situations in which slots can be switched. Divide this number by 10 (for a fixed slot) or 5 (for a flexible slot).

Fixed Slots: A fixed slot must be allocated (but not necessarily used) at full power. So a fixed slot with a 10d6 Energy Blast with no modifiers would use up fifty points from the pool, even if only used as an 8d6 Energy Blast.
Flexible Slots: A flexible slot can be allocated with any number of points up to the maximum it was purchased for. So the above 10d6 Energy Blast would only use 40 points of the pool if it was only being used at 8d6.

Pool Control- A pool control allows a character to allocate points toward any power that fits the special effect of the pool. The base time to allocate points to a power with a pool control is one turn. If a character has a Power skill for the pool, he may make a skill roll to allocate points as a full phase action. This skill roll is at -1 per 10 active points in the power.
The base cost of the pool control is one half of the largest number of Active Points the character can allocate to a single power in the pool. In other words, the most Active Points that can be allocated to a single power within a pool control is twice the base cost of the Pool Control. GMs may want to limit a Pool Control to half the pool cost, when used with an RPP.

Pool Control Advantages:
For a +1/2 advantage on the Pool Control, points can be allocated as a half-phase action.
For a +1 advantage on the Pool Control, points can be allocated as a zero-phase action.
For a +1 advantage on the Pool Control, no skill roll is necessary to allocate points in combat.
Pool Control Limitations:
Any limitation that will be applied to every power in the pool may also be taken on the Pool Control.
Further, the following limitation may apply.
(See list of VPP limitations from 5ER)

_______________
This has the advantage of being (mostly) backwards compatible. A Multipower is just an APP with slots and no Pool Control, and a Variable Power Pools is an RPP with Pool Controls and no slots.



Examples:
Eric the Eldritch has the Amulet of Egon, which gives him magical powers. When he first starts his career, he has the following framework.

53 Eldritch Energies: 80pt APP; OIF (Amulet of Egon; -1/2)
8 m Eldritch Blast : 12d6 Energy Blast (60ap)
8 m Eldritch Flight : 20" Flight; Reduced Endurance (+1/2) (60ap)
6 m Eldritch Shield : Forcefield (15 PD/ED/Power Def) (45ap)

This construct acts like a regular Multipower. Eric can allocate the 80 active points of the pool among the three powers as he chooses.

As he becomes more skilled with the amulet, rather than adding additional normal slots, eric adds a pool control. The result looks like:

53 Eldritch Energies: 80pt APP; OIF (Amulet of Egon; -1/2)
8 m Eldritch Blast : 12d6 Energy Blast (60ap)
8 m Eldritch Flight : 20" Flight; Reduced Endurance (+1/2) (60ap)
6 m Eldritch Shield : Forcefield (15 PD/ED/Power Def) (45ap)
10 Cantrips Pool Control for 20ap powers; Can Be allocated as half-phase action (+1/2)

This construct acts like a regular multipower, except that Eric can allocate up to 20 Active points of the pool to any magical power he chooses by making an appropriate power skill roll and using a half-phase action.
____

Prestidigitator can pull ectoplasm from the air to form almost anything he can imagine. If he stops concentrating on a given item, it quickly dissipates. His player buys an RPP to represent this.

60 Ectoplasm : 60pt RPP
30 Ectoplasmic Control: Pool Control for 60ap Powers

This acts just like a VPP under current rules. He can any combination of powers so long as the total real points of the powers totals to 60 or less, and each power has 60 or fewer active points. To change powers in combat, he has to use a full phase and make a successful skill roll.

After being surprised one too many times with no offense or defense ready, he buys two dedicated slots:

60 Ectoplasm : 60pt RPP
24 Ectoplasmic Control: Pool Control for 60ap Powers; Physical Manifestation (All powers; -1/4)
6 u Ectoplasmic Sword : 3d6 RKA; Restrainable (-1/2), No Range (-1/2) (45ap/22rp)
3 u Ectoplasmic Mail : Armor (10pd,10ed); Physical Manifestation (-1/4), Activate (15-, -1/4) (30ap/20rp)

Now he can manifest his sword and armor as a zero-phase action. He still has to use a full turn and make a successful skill roll to manifest anything else.

[Klaus Mogensen]

Power Pools
A power pool gives you a pool of points that you can distribute between various powers. A pool can be either an Active Point Pool (APP) or a Real Point Pool (RPP). There are plusses and minuses to each type.

Active Point Pool (APP): An APP has a base cost of 1 character point per 1 Active Point in the pool. The total of Active Points of powers allocated in the pool can never exceed the base pool cost. Limitations may be put on the pool cost to lower its Real Point cost. Only limitations which affect every power in the pool may be taken on the pool.
Real Point Pool (RPP): An RPP has a cost of 1 character point per 1 Real Point in the pool. The total Real Points of powers allocated in the pool can never exceed the pool cost. No limitations can be taken on the pool cost.

Allocating Points
For either kind of pool, the points are allocated via slots and/or a pool control.

Slots- A slot is a specific power that can be used from the pool. A slot may be activated as a zero-phase action. To find the cost of a slot, determine what the Real Cost of the power would be if purchased outside the pool. This includes any limitations which affect switching slots, such as extra time to switch slots, or limited situations in which slots can be switched. Divide this number by 10 (for a fixed slot) or 5 (for a flexible slot).

Fixed Slots: A fixed slot must be allocated (but not necessarily used) at full power. So a fixed slot with a 10d6 Energy Blast with no modifiers would use up fifty points from the pool, even if only used as an 8d6 Energy Blast.
Flexible Slots: A flexible slot can be allocated with any number of points up to the maximum it was purchased for. So the above 10d6 Energy Blast would only use 40 points of the pool if it was only being used at 8d6.

Pool Control- A pool control allows a character to allocate points toward any power that fits the special effect of the pool. The base time to allocate points to a power with a pool control is one turn. If a character has a Power skill for the pool, he may make a skill roll to allocate points as a full phase action. This skill roll is at -1 per 10 active points in the power.
The base cost of the pool control is one half of the largest number of Active Points the character can allocate to a single power in the pool. In other words, the most Active Points that can be allocated to a single power within a pool control is twice the base cost of the Pool Control. GMs may want to limit a Pool Control to half the pool cost, when used with an RPP.

Pool Control Advantages:
For a +1/2 advantage on the Pool Control, points can be allocated as a half-phase action.
For a +1 advantage on the Pool Control, points can be allocated as a zero-phase action.
For a +1 advantage on the Pool Control, no skill roll is necessary to allocate points in combat.
Pool Control Limitations:
Any limitation that will be applied to every power in the pool may also be taken on the Pool Control.
Further, the following limitation may apply.
(See list of VPP limitations from 5ER)

This looks a lot like the Flexible Power I presented back in October, with a few variations and fewer options.

One thing I don't understand: Why would anyone choose to buy an Active Point Pool rather than a Real Point Pool? As far as I can see, a Real Point Pool is effectively an Active Point Pool where you can take different Limitations on the powers and still get a discount on the Power Pool cost.

To illustrate, let's redo Eric's Eldritch Energies as an RPP:

53 Eldritch Energies: 53pt RPP
8 m Eldritch Blast: 12d6 Energy Blast; OIF (Amulet of Egon; -1/2) (40rp)
8 m Eldritch Flight: 20" Flight; Reduced Endurance (+1/2); OIF (Amulet of Egon; -1/2) (40rp)
6 m Eldritch Shield: Forcefield (15 PD/ED/Power Def); OIF (Amulet of Egon; -1/2) (30rp)

As you can see, the cost is the same, but we can now add a slot that would be illegal in the APP, since the Active Cost is 100ap:

8 m Eldritch Burst: 10d6 Energy Blast; OAF Cone (+1); No Range (-½), Double END (-½); OIF (Amulet of Egon; -1/2) (40rp)

IOW, with an RPP, you can do all you can do with an APP - but the reverse isn't true. You might as well scrap the APP and only have the RPP - which is basically what I did in my version.

- Klaus

[Steve Long]

Hey folx! It's time for me to start reading all the 6E threads, and that means I need to lock them.

Hopefully 15 months has been plenty of time for anyone who wanted to have a say, to have a say. So please, don't start up other threads to try to continue discussions, send me PMs with points you "just have to make," or anything like that. It's time for y'all to sit back, relax, have a frosty beverage, and let me get 6E written.

We definitely appreciate everyone's interest, participation, and ideas! I'm looking forward to reading the posts and seeing what nuggets of wisdom lurk therein. I have no doubt 6E is going to be even better than it would have been because of our fans' enthusiastic efforts at providing us with input and suggestions.