Powers Issues -- S-T

[Steve Long]

Hi folx! Here are some thoughts about Powers that begin with S-T that have occurred to me over the years, along with my brief thoughts on them. I’m posting them here to stimulate discussion, but not to limit or restrict it. These aren’t necessarily all the issues about these Powers that could be considered, nor the only thoughts about them. Feel free to post anything here that you think is relevant and reasonably constructive; you don’t have to limit yourself to what I’ve posted.

Regardless of whatever opinion I post on an idea, I’m always willing to be convinced otherwise if you think you can do it. The fact that I’m posting an opinion doesn’t necessarily mean my mind’s made up on an issue; it just indicates my current thinking on the subject.

Periodically I may post other questions and thoughts that occur to me.


Q: Should Shrinking and Growth be done differently?

Steve’s Thoughts: See the “Powers F-K” post for discussion of this issue.


Q: Should Shrinking provide “growth momentum” damage?

Steve’s Thoughts: If we’re consistent about decoupling things (Figureds from Primaries, Mental Awareness as a freebie, etc.), then growth momentum damage should also be removed. It should be bought as a supplementary ability.


Q: Should Stretching provide “velocity” damage?

Steve’s Thoughts: If we’re consistent about decoupling things (Figureds from Primaries, Mental Awareness as a freebie, etc.), then velocity damage should also be removed. It should be bought as a supplementary ability.


Q: Should Swinging be eliminated in favor of making it a Limited form of Flight?

Steve’s Thoughts: I’ve heard this suggested, and the idea is not without merit, but I’m not entirely sold on it. I think there’s an ease-of-use benefit to keeping it a separate Power.


Q: Should Swinging be removed from the core rules and put in the Champions genre book?

Steve’s Thoughts: Arguably Swinging is a holdover from the days where Champions and the HERO System were the same thing. It’s true that characters can use Swinging in other genres, but it’s rarely something they buy as a Power. I’m not entirely sold on this idea either, especially because I don’t like the idea of putting entire Powers in genre books, but it’s worth considering.

Another possibility might be to make Swinging an Agility Skill. When you buy it, you’re assumed to have a swingline; if that gets taken away you can use environmental swinglines (e.g., vines in a jungle) at a Skill Roll penalty. Since by far the most common special effect for Swinging is “it’s a skill I have,” turning it back into a Skill might make some sense.


Q: Should Transfer be eliminated in favor of some sort of Drain + Linked Aid construct?

Steve’s Thoughts: As with my discussion of Absorption in another thread, my answer is “No, I don’t think so.” I think it’s helpful to keep it as a separate Power.

[Chris Goodwin]

I'd like to see Shapeshift done somewhat differently, primarily the physical forms part. As it is written, Shapeshift vs. the Touch group to get a physical form change is IMO counterintuitive. I can conceptualize various combinations of Shapeshift abilities (for instance, Shapeshift vs. Touch or Shapeshift vs. Physical Form without vs. Sight gives you a character like Plasticman from the cartoons, who can take on many shapes but still looks like a goofy guy in a red and yellow suit).

I've recently had some thoughts about unifying Shapeshift, Transform, and to an extent Multiform. Shapeshift is for the most part the equivalent of a Cosmetic change; a Major Transform does many of the things Multiform does. If you're interested in hearing more I'll write something up and pass it along to you (keeping in mind your caveats throughout the 6e forum on credit, use of ideas, and who the ideas belong to). The basic idea is that you would buy some kind of Shapeshift/Multiform Power, and Transform is a modifier on that that allows you to do it to someone else by rolling dice and comparing it to their BODY.

[James Gillen]

I'd like to see Shapeshift done somewhat differently, primarily the physical forms part. As it is written, Shapeshift vs. the Touch group to get a physical form change is IMO counterintuitive. I can conceptualize various combinations of Shapeshift abilities (for instance, Shapeshift vs. Touch or Shapeshift vs. Physical Form without vs. Sight gives you a character like Plasticman from the cartoons, who can take on many shapes but still looks like a goofy guy in a red and yellow suit).

I've recently had some thoughts about unifying Shapeshift, Transform, and to an extent Multiform. Shapeshift is for the most part the equivalent of a Cosmetic change; a Major Transform does many of the things Multiform does. If you're interested in hearing more I'll write something up and pass it along to you (keeping in mind your caveats throughout the 6e forum on credit, use of ideas, and who the ideas belong to). The basic idea is that you would buy some kind of Shapeshift/Multiform Power, and Transform is a modifier on that that allows you to do it to someone else by rolling dice and comparing it to their BODY.

I already defined my issue with 5th Edition Shape Shift in my RPG.net review of The Ultimate Metamorph; even though it isn't defined as such, SS is basically a Sense-Affecting Power affecting oneself, with one example in the rules being a fat guy with Shape Shift versus Sight who is tied up and uses his power to 'thin' himself; even though he looks thinner, if the Power isn't bought with Touch Sense, the ropes don't fall away. While this might be the right effect in some cases (like a personal-effect illusion) the result is that Shape Shift means the thing-in-itself is ontologically different from the phenomenon perceived, which leads to the disturbing spectre of a roleplaying game designed by Immanuel Kant.

JG

[James Gillen]

Q: Should Transfer be eliminated in favor of some sort of Drain + Linked Aid construct?

Steve’s Thoughts: As with my discussion of Absorption in another thread, my answer is “No, I don’t think so.” I think it’s helpful to keep it as a separate Power.

My problem with 5th Edition's "fixing" of Aid to be 10 points per die instead of 5 was largely that it made Transfer more cost-efficient than actual Aid- whereas in the old system 5 pt. Aid and 10 pt. Drain were equivalent to 15 pt. Transfer, now 15 pt. Transfer is cheaper than 10 pt. Aid and 10 pt. Drain; for the equivalent of +1/2 Advantage, you have a Power that does both.

JG

[Enforcer84]

If you're going to decouple everything it seems to me that more points and more verbage will be required for characters.

[James Gillen]

If you're going to decouple everything it seems to me that more points and more verbage will be required for characters.

Agreed.

jg

[Acid_Crash]

I don't know, I always hated the Transform power... it was just one of those powers that never made any sense to me as written... I think it would make more sense if there was some kind of resistance roll against the power. The different distinctions between minor, major and really major (can't remember the three official names) categories was never clear to me, so the power never made much sense to me.

Of course I have no idea how you can write the power to make it any better, but some people just do not get it, and maybe if all the power effects were seperated into seperate powers it would make more sense.

I don't know why it's based on the Body of the target. It seems counter-intuitive to me. It should be based on something else.

[jtelson]

Q: Should Swinging be eliminated in favor of making it a Limited form of Flight?

Steve’s Thoughts: I’ve heard this suggested, and the idea is not without merit, but I’m not entirely sold on it. I think there’s an ease-of-use benefit to keeping it a separate Power.

Swinging is essentialy a controlled move through the air ability. So like gliding I've generally felt that it should always have been limited flight.

Aside from general 'neatness in my brain' thoughts at 1 point per inch for a generally readily accessible movement power I've occasionally seen it misused with Maneuvers and Martial Maneuvers that have v/ damage components.

The description of how swinging works is not really more complicated than gliding so including it as a standard limitation on flight doesn't seem particularly cludgey.

The downside I see with both this and Gliding is that it complicates the Usable (As a second form of movement) advantage; For which I do not have a non convoluted answer.

[Sean Waters]

I like (after a shaky start) the way shapeshift uses sense groups, but physical form shifting should, I'd suggest, be done by an adder you can buy if you have either shapeshifting OR stretching. The adder could scale depending on how much you could change your actualy physical shape or deforrm eg:

5 points: you can halve your width
+5 points you can halve your width again

5 points: you can deform your body allowing you to use the points in (power) as a bonus to strength for escaping bonds and grabs.

Stretching has a lot of the characteristics of movement powers, and could easily be treated as one instead of 'decoupling'.

You could treat swinging and swimming (and gliding for that matter) as limitations on other modes of movement, as they currently can cause AP conflicts as they are so much cheaper, and are a bit inconsistent regarding END.

[Kdansky]

Q: Should Shrinking provide “growth momentum” damage?

Well, if you go with the "big, complicated table" thing, then you can work it in there and that makes sense. If you don't want to do that, then remove that ability here too.

Q: Should Stretching provide “velocity” damage?

Again, that's nearly everything that stretching does, or else it just becomes TK or ranged strength (which we can but shall not buy).

Q: Should Swinging be eliminated in favor of making it a Limited form of Flight?

Definitely. Flight, requires Focus of opportunity (high things). Extremly simple, and nearly the only character that uses it is Spiderman. It's just extremly un-generic.

Q: Should Swinging be removed from the core rules and put in the Champions genre book? (Or should it become a skill)

I still think it's limited flight (if you want to roll for it, take a limitation).

Q: Should Transfer be eliminated in favor of some sort of Drain + Linked Aid construct?

As I said in the absorbtion thread: So much complication, this is way easier. Also "Drain, linked to Aid" does not mean you roll only one set of dice, but two times. Once how much you drain, once how much you gain. I really dislike the idea of combining that and handwaving that mechanical differerence.


Shapeshift vs Touch also annoys me to no end. I will post on that topic another time.

[Spidey88]

Definitely. Flight, requires Focus of opportunity (high things). Extremly simple, and nearly the only character that uses it is Spiderman.

Well, honestly; you've got Spider-Man, Venom, Arana, Black Cat, Daredevil, Batman, Robin, Nightwing, Catwoman, Tarzan, Indiana Jones...

I see it as being pretty common, esp. among the Dark Champions-style characters. If you aren't overtly superpowered and regularly drive a whatever-mobile, you're likely using swinging (IMHO).

[Edsel]

I printed off all of Steve's original posts in all of the 6th Edition threads and spent hours reading them last night and thinking. It is amazing how little I came up with to respond with though. However the opinions in this post are based only on what Steve has posted in message #1 of this thread, I haven't been influenced by what others have posted subsequently since I haven't read them yet. I will try to keep my comments brief since there is a hellava lot to read in these discussions.

Q: Should Shrinking and Growth be done differently?

Steve’s Thoughts: See the “Powers F-K” post for discussion of this issue.

I expressed my thoughts in that thread as well. Short answer, No.

Q: Should Shrinking provide “growth momentum” damage?

Probably not.

Q: Should Stretching provide “velocity” damage?

If you decouple growth momentum then this will have to go as well.

Q: Should Swinging be eliminated in favor of making it a Limited form of Flight?

Keep it as is. It is far too useful in the Heroic games that my group regularly plays.

Q: Should Swinging be removed from the core rules and put in the Champions genre book?

Another possibility might be to make Swinging an Agility Skill. When you buy it, you’re assumed to have a swingline; if that gets taken away you can use environmental swinglines (e.g., vines in a jungle) at a Skill Roll penalty. Since by far the most common special effect for Swinging is “it’s a skill I have,” turning it back into a Skill might make some sense.

I find the Swinging as an Agility Skill concept to be of interest. I favor this.

Q: Should Transfer be eliminated in favor of some sort of Drain + Linked Aid construct?

No, it's been around forever and I like it as it is.

[misterdeath]

Q: Should Shrinking and Growth be done differently?

See comments elsewhere.

Q: Should Shrinking provide “growth momentum” damage?

It still does that? Hmm.

Q: Should Stretching provide “velocity” damage?

It still does that? Hmm.

Q: Should Swinging be eliminated in favor of making it a Limited form of Flight?

I think that's a pretty good idea.

Q: Should Swinging be removed from the core rules and put in the Champions genre book?

Another possibility might be to make Swinging an Agility Skill. When you buy it, you’re assumed to have a swingline; if that gets taken away you can use environmental swinglines (e.g., vines in a jungle) at a Skill Roll penalty. Since by far the most common special effect for Swinging is “it’s a skill I have,” turning it back into a Skill might make some sense.

Swinging, the skill, might have some differing connotations to people that survived the seventies. But other than that, I like Skill better than "Champions V6, now with Swinging."

Q: Should Transfer be eliminated in favor of some sort of Drain + Linked Aid construct?

Again, I can see where you're going. But, there's a reason why most of us end up giving up on the whole, "There's only 4 powers, Attack, Defend, Move, and Change" and everything is just advantages and limitations on top of it.

D

[JmOz]

Regarding Swinging, what about making it a Talent, based on flight?

[Lord Liaden]

I've long had a couple of concerns about the Transfer Power. One is that you can only remove points from a target up to the maximum that can be rolled on the Transfer dice. IME this makes it a poor offensive choice when compared to Drain, which can continue to affect an opponent indefinitely; especially when you compare the relative cost of Drain vs. Transfer. Assuming you (Steve) would agree with this comparison, I can suggest three ways it might be dealt with:

1) Keep the cost of Transfer the same, but allow it to continue to Drain a target after the Transferring character has reached his maximum increase, with no further gain for the character;

2) Keep Transfer working mechanically in all ways as it does now, but lower the cost to 1d6 per 10 Active Points;

3) Allow an additional Advantage: "Points Gained Up To Starting Value Do Not Fade," as with 4E Adjustment Powers. (I would peg this at +1/2, for reasons which properly belong to discussion of another Power, and will appear there.) Personally I would favor this last approach, as IMHO it makes for a far simpler and smoother mechanic for the classic effect of "powering up" by draining another source, than the current Linked Transfer + Healing.

Note that suggestion 3 is not exclusive of 1 or 2.